I own a PS Audio Regenerator and I enjoy it but only for front-end gear. But I can tell you the further you move away from the main AC outlets that are the closest to the AC input the thinner the sound becomes. Also, the bottom half of each duplex sounds better than the upper half same as any wall ac outlet does. So in the end I came to the conclusion your system will sound fully dependent on which outlets you use on the PS, AQ 5000, or Furman or whatever and I have tried many and all have the same changes depending on the outlets on that unit you use. So tonight the AC comes out of my wall, something I've not tried in 10 years. I got no biased mindset, plug, play and listen, my ears will tell me. The cost to me is zip.
Isolation Transformer and Balanced Power versus PS Audio Regenerator
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
As I have pointed our earlier, most 'power conditioners' marketed to high end audio are not actually conditioners so much as they are glorified power strips. Some have DC blocking and spike protection, but when it comes to sorting out distortion on the line don't do anything. A power strip forces everything plugged into it to use a single power cord- which has a voltage drop across it. That's OK for a front end of a system if the equipment has good regulation. Doesn't work so well if amplifiers are plugged in there as well, as you state.
For this reason we have usually recommended to our customers that they plug the amps they got from us directly into the wall. But if you actually have a good power conditioner, there is a benefit to using them with our amps. There are IMO hardly any for real, good power conditioners offered to high end audio, so for the most part you're better off without.
What kind of distance are you referring to? My powered ATC's are using 6' cords from the P15; the rest of the components, including the subs, are using 3-4'. I haven't anything that sounds thin, but I don't have the outlets to experiment with direct to wall connection.
This guy is in the camp that specs are all that matter and worse of all say we are silly if you hear a difference and in an A/B test we could not hear when a unit was in or not on use. Same for cables, I would destroy him on that, and easy. In some units or cables, the bass is stronger or less, highs are more upfront or laid back, etc. With the PS Audio p-12, the dynamics improve, black of blackest background, all easy to hear. He likes many on Youtube who wants to say we are silly audiophiles. We talk ourselves into hearing an improvement. pure BS. To him, all preamps would sound the same if they spec out the same, amps the same, speaker wires and interconnects just need a decent made set because they spec out the same but that is not how things work in audio, it how the power cords react to the power supply of the unit, the speaker and amp with the speaker cable, the interconnects impendence and length of the run all impact the sound, RCA or true balanced circuits, etc. Now I think you need to spend crazy money with real fancy designs for looks no, but you can say that cables don't make a system sound different from one brand to another and one design to another, even if his scopes say they do. He looks as our hobby as BS driven and to some point that is true at times with all the marketing of products from NASA design (right NASA is into audio) to medical and on and on, but Kimber, Harmonic Technology, and others make a solid well-made products, as well as PS Audio who regenerators to what they say they do, Torus, Audioquest (though Garth is over the top). But they are well made.
What I struggle with is the tension between points of view toward the efficacy of power conditioning products.
Particularly considering Ralph's POV, whom I respect, and whose products I have owned, who states pretty clearly that he knows of no power conditioner that works other than those from PS Audio and others that are essentially industrial products (Elgar), because they produce low, measurable THD, and specifically low 5th order harmonic distortion.
Yet Amir demonstrated the ineffectiveness of the PS Audio PowerPlant 12 based on the bench tests he performed. No, he didn't test 5th order harmonic distortion. Perhaps he should have.
Assume a power conditioner is effective based on low THD, or low 5th order harmonic distortion. Is it discernible by ear? Does it make a system sound better?
Which leads to the point of view expressed by those who approach efficacy of power conditioners, cords and ancillary products by how they alter a system's sound. If a system sounds better, according to an owner's perspective, does it matter if THD is reduced?
Particularly considering Ralph's POV, whom I respect, and whose products I have owned, who states pretty clearly that he knows of no power conditioner that works other than those from PS Audio and others that are essentially industrial products (Elgar), because they produce low, measurable THD, and specifically low 5th order harmonic distortion.
Yet Amir demonstrated the ineffectiveness of the PS Audio PowerPlant 12 based on the bench tests he performed. No, he didn't test 5th order harmonic distortion. Perhaps he should have.
Assume a power conditioner is effective based on low THD, or low 5th order harmonic distortion. Is it discernible by ear? Does it make a system sound better?
Which leads to the point of view expressed by those who approach efficacy of power conditioners, cords and ancillary products by how they alter a system's sound. If a system sounds better, according to an owner's perspective, does it matter if THD is reduced?
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People have personal and subjective opinions about the sonic effects of different kinds of AC power products on their audio systems. I think the only intellectually honest thing that can be said is that there is no way to tell in advance what will be the sonic effects of power regeneration versus isolation transformer versus balanced power versus passive noise suppression versus battery power on a particular audio system as perceived by a particular audiophile's ears.
No rule of general applicability can be formulated. Which power device, if any, is "best" will be very idiosyncratic and will depend on each audiophile's particular mains power voltage stability and variance situation, ambient EMI environment, audio system components and personal sonic preferences.
In setting up a new audio system I assumed that I wanted either a PS Audio regenerator or an isolation transformer/balanced power device for my turntable power supply, phono stage and line stage preamplifier. I compared a PS Audio regenerator to an Equi-Tech device on a friend's familiar system. See https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/equi-tech-2rq-versus-ps-audio-p10.30215/
The sonic effects of each of these devices on my friend's system were very audibly different. Which sonic effects were "correct"?
That comparison experience left me so perplexed that I have decided to put together my new system, at least initially, with no AC power devices at all.
No rule of general applicability can be formulated. Which power device, if any, is "best" will be very idiosyncratic and will depend on each audiophile's particular mains power voltage stability and variance situation, ambient EMI environment, audio system components and personal sonic preferences.
In setting up a new audio system I assumed that I wanted either a PS Audio regenerator or an isolation transformer/balanced power device for my turntable power supply, phono stage and line stage preamplifier. I compared a PS Audio regenerator to an Equi-Tech device on a friend's familiar system. See https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/equi-tech-2rq-versus-ps-audio-p10.30215/
The sonic effects of each of these devices on my friend's system were very audibly different. Which sonic effects were "correct"?
That comparison experience left me so perplexed that I have decided to put together my new system, at least initially, with no AC power devices at all.
Ron, you wrote a cogent post that closely mirrors my sentiments. I have owned more than half a dozen power conditioning products from all approaches, including products from PS Audio, AudioQuest, Synergistic Research, Bybee, Sound Applications and Torus. I heard differences. As you wrote, which was correct? Does correct even exist?
Like yourself, I'm leaning toward removing power conditioning all together, and installing a good power distribution block; perhaps something from Furutech.
My amplifiers are plugged directly to the wall.
I do have an Environmental Potentials EP-2050 installed at the service panel.
Although I fully agree with you - as it is not predictable I call it Voodoo science
- IMHO we should have our mains diagnosed before going in mains conditioning systems. Some alternatives will suit better some types of mains faults than others.
Why a distribution block. If you have the option to run new wire, do it. Avoid distribution strips wherever possible.
Good question.
I'm expecting a non-sense answer. It seems like the status quo is preferring bigger ground loops.
I purcesed StromTank S 5000 after trying top Keyces and PS audio devices and it is amazing device.
It cuts you off grid totally and if you have like 99% of us bad power including photovoltaic power (solar power) in every other home than you really benefit of getting totally off grid.
You play midnight's quality all daylong.
People don't understand that having thousands of solar generators in near area is extremelly noisy not mention millions of swiching power supplys.
Also I Can't stress enough about safety that is an additional big benefit of StromTank. Solar systems elevate voltage very significant during a day
and this might be influencing durability of our very sensitive devices.
You are simply disconnected from power surges and all the noise.
Yes StromTank S 5000 is relatively expensive device but is well worth the money.
It cuts you off grid totally and if you have like 99% of us bad power including photovoltaic power (solar power) in every other home than you really benefit of getting totally off grid.
You play midnight's quality all daylong.
People don't understand that having thousands of solar generators in near area is extremelly noisy not mention millions of swiching power supplys.
Also I Can't stress enough about safety that is an additional big benefit of StromTank. Solar systems elevate voltage very significant during a day
and this might be influencing durability of our very sensitive devices.
You are simply disconnected from power surges and all the noise.
Yes StromTank S 5000 is relatively expensive device but is well worth the money.
Yes, he should. Fluke Instruments has published many papers on the deleterious effects of the 5th harmonic. I met a Fluke engineer who wrote one of their papers way back in the 1990s so I got first hand coaching on the topic. If you're going to test a power conditioner, that's a test that should be very high on the list of things you do to test it. I have a lot of respect for Amirm, but IMO he didn't know what he was up to in this case, and if I had to guess, didn't have the equipment on hand to do the test properly (you'd have to generate a 60Hz waveform of sufficient power that also has a significant 5th harmonic...).
I'm convinced it does, insofar as AC power is concerned. You can observe the waveform on an oscilloscope; if its got obvious distortion you know you've got a problem. How much the equipment responds to it is a different matter; if it has high amounts of loop gain, good Gain Bandwidth Product and high feedback (+35dB) at all frequencies in the audio band then you're likely to not hear much because the high feedback will correct distortions introduced by the power supply.
At $31K and 276 lbs, it better be a good step up (but only 6 outlets?). Paul of PS Audio only claims about 90% isolation from what the wall’s providing with the P15 and P20.
I’ve never come across a mention of solar’s effects on sound quality before, thanks. Timely here because our condo complex is considering the option of individual buildings going over to solar (electricity was privatized in Montana a few decades ago and is the most expensive I’ve lived with, save Europe).
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Solar power systems use a switching technology to convert from the battery voltage to AC. if loaded heavily they can make some noise.
Although I fully agree with you - as it is not predictable I call it Voodoo science
I agree with @microstrip. Where I live in FL, the local utility is well known for having (in audiophile terms) horrendous power. Here’s a sample (and you can be quite sure this is representative of what happens week after week) of what my P20 sees, and what it does with it.
This is not meant to suggest that power regeneration is the “correct” answer, or that every device would sound its best if such were used. But I think it’s a good visual thought experiment - if this is what’s hitting our equipment, is it reasonable to think it just might be affecting the sound somehow?
In fact I am astonished that people do not do the proper tests when reviewing power regenerators. It is extremely easy to generate perfect or distorted mains, particularly at 110V. We just need a true 500W RMS at 8 ohm stereo amplifier with balanced inputs, an USB PC soundcard and a software generator, such as included in Stectraplus - https://www.spectraplus.com/- the trial version works for 30 days.
In order to create the balanced mains, the ampliifer should be operated in bridged mode - the output signal from the soundcard should be connected to the non-inverting phase of one channel and to the inverting phase of the other. Mains is taken from the two outputs.
To generate 230V I must include a 1kW step-up toroidal power transformer.
Surely we can use the same set up to analyze the mains, but a step down device is needed to apply it to the input of the soundcard. For safety, the device should also be an insulating device. I use a resistor divider 10 kohm and 22 ohm , followed by an 1/1 audio transformer.
You could probably use a lower powered amp using a power transformer to boost the amplifier output to line voltage if all you were doing was testing the ability to reject the 5th harmonic. But being able to do it under load (500W amp...) would certainly be useful! Bogen used to make 100W tube amps that had a 117V tap on the output transformer, for the purpose of being able to vary line frequency in certain applications (with the use of an oscillator at the input of the amplifier). I'm pretty sure this is how Jimi Hendricks varied the speed of his tape machines on Electric Ladyland.
I'm not understanding the meaning of "from the IEC power input" in your phrase "from the closest ac out from the IEC power input..." My P15 is stationed at the wall output with a 3' power cord (WyWires Diamond) and from there 3' to 6' runs.
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