Isolation Transformer and Balanced Power versus PS Audio Regenerator

[Atmasphere]

I wasn't talking about signal current. I am talking about ground loop induced currents which have nothing to do with the signal. And it doesn't matter if the output is referenced to ground. A balanced system will still work perfectly even if one of the signal wires is connected to ground. It just will by definition since the proceeding input stage only reacts to the difference in potential. Mind you the output impedances of both hot and cold should still be indentical for proper balanced operation

cheers
AP

Perhaps this will clear up what I'm talking about. In the old days the 'Absolute Best Way' was how it was done, since everything had to use transformers.

RANE Commercial - Knowledge Base

Rane Commercial

www.ranecommercial.com

 

[Tranquility Bass]

How do you have a ground loop without a signal wire?

The shield of a balanced cable typically forms the ground loop in a balanced system but fortunately no signal information is flowing through it.

cheers

 

[Alrainbow]

The shield of a balanced cable typically forms the ground loop in a balanced system but fortunately no signal information is flowing through it.

cheers

In any audio system there is only two paths for correct grounding. One that does little to no harm .
One is pure isolation of each device . This can be done using input and output transformers. This was the way years ago lol.but it's expensive, so we pay very high prices for less complicated audio that needs additional requirements to sound good. IE ground boxes.
The second is what we do with ground boxes today.
If we used simple iso transformers in and out we have no need for costly ground boxes. The bal architecture was made for live and studio events to stop hum . Back then one could lift the shield to help hum .
A fully bal cable tech had 4 wires
One pair signal
One shield that is not grounded to either device if made right
The 4 is the metal connection we use this is a continuation of the ground . Trouble is some makers use bal and then mess up.its purpose .
Atmosphere can add or correct my post and please do so sir

 

[Kingrex]

What does a ground box have to do with anything Al. Are you talking about an Entreq type box?
And didn't Folsom say its all Hokus Pokus to think you can drain noise from a ground?

I have never had a ground box. But I have heard they do nothing to fix a ground loop. But they are suppose to have a good sonic affect on a system that has had the electrical infrastructure built out well. In other words, they don't fix problems. They are more the cherry on top.

 

[Atmasphere]

In any audio system there is only two paths for correct grounding. One that does little to no harm .
One is pure isolation of each device . This can be done using input and output transformers. This was the way years ago lol.but it's expensive, so we pay very high prices for less complicated audio that needs additional requirements to sound good. IE ground boxes.
The second is what we do with ground boxes today.
If we used simple iso transformers in and out we have no need for costly ground boxes. The bal architecture was made for live and studio events to stop hum . Back then one could lift the shield to help hum .
A fully bal cable tech had 4 wires
One pair signal
One shield that is not grounded to either device if made right
The 4 is the metal connection we use this is a continuation of the ground . Trouble is some makers use bal and then mess up.its purpose .
Atmosphere can add or correct my post and please do so sir

All the Ground Boxes I've seen offered to high end audio do not offer isolation. I'm convinced that if the audio equipment used in a system has a properly designed grounding scheme (rare in high end audio...) such boxes would offer no benefit whatsoever. That might be the case regardless.

A balanced line is typically a shield (pin 1 of the XLR) with the signal being on a twisted pair of wires within the shield. 4 wires (1 for the chassis connection) is not recommended. Take a look at that Rane article I linked in my prior post.

 

[Folsom]

What does a ground box have to do with anything Al. Are you talking about an Entreq type box?
And didn't Folsom say its all Hokus Pokus to think you can drain noise from a ground?

I have never had a ground box. But I have heard they do nothing to fix a ground loop. But they are suppose to have a good sonic affect on a system that has had the electrical infrastructure built out well. In other words, they don't fix problems. They are more the cherry on top.

Ground boxes may sound amazing to the listener, no reason to dispute personal taste.

But also nothing changes the fact that they are an antenna. They could reduce ground loop noise if they had all the equipment tied to one spot but usually they are separated on purpose.

Now everyone loses their shit. “It cannot be!!! It sounds better, like there is less noise!!!” Doesn’t change a thing. Extraordinarily simple physics. It is what it is, and cannot be more. Just accept the fact that a tuned antenna gives you what you want, if you like the sound. (Also note “noise” in electronics does not directly translate into audible artifacts, - as in something new - it aberrates the existing signal. It is mixing with the existing paint before it is applied, not being applied as a new color after the fact.)

 

[Alrainbow]

Rex a ground box is simple for the novice to install. While I would never buy one it’s still. how did you fix your hum lol. just kidding on the hum

 

[Alrainbow]

Ground boxes may sound amazing to the listener, no reason to dispute personal taste.

But also nothing changes the fact that they are an antenna. They could reduce ground loop noise if they had all the equipment tied to one spot but usually they are separated on purpose.

Now everyone loses their shit. “It cannot be!!! It sounds better, like there is less noise!!!” Doesn’t change a thing. Extraordinarily simple physics. It is what it is, and cannot be more. Just accept the fact that a tuned antenna gives you what you want, if you like the sound. (Also note “noise” in electronics does not directly translate into audible artifacts, - as in something new - it aberrates the existing signal. It is mixing with the existing paint before it is applied, not being applied as a new color after the fact.)

may I ask how a ground box and it’s peripheral wires act as an antenna
and before you reply look up the wavelength of 60 cycles lol.

 

[Alrainbow]

we each look for making audio better , but how do you know what you have observed is better. it’s hard and easy to be fooled myself included.
Rex tests to see I fully respect him for this.
A ground box by anyones brand is what I meant above. even when you don’t hear hum , bad grounding steals dynamics

 

[Alrainbow]

What does a ground box have to do with anything Al. Are you talking about an Entreq type box?
And didn't Folsom say its all Hokus Pokus to think you can drain noise from a ground?

I have never had a ground box. But I have heard they do nothing to fix a ground loop. But they are suppose to have a good sonic affect on a system that has had the electrical infrastructure built out well. In other words, they don't fix problems. They are more the cherry on top.

I have to agree to a point
fixing and making it sound better are hand in hand. now a bad ground loop due to bad cables or devices yes

 

[Kingrex]

(Also note “noise” in electronics does not directly translate into audible artifacts, - as in something new - it aberrates the existing signal. It is mixing with the existing paint before it is applied, not being applied as a new color after the fact.)

That's a darn good point. Noise mixes with the existing power and signal. It is not laid over it. It blends into the power and the whole of the noise and the power becomes one. Stripping noise then becomes interesting. Are you really removing something, or just trying to reshape something that already has become?

 

[Phillyb]

PURCHASED A CORE 600 FOR MY FRONT-END SYSTEM FROM UNDERWOOD HIFI AND IT SOUNDS AS GOOD AS ANY POWER CONDITIONER I'VE OWN FROM $5,000 AND UP AND YOU CAN NAME THE NAMES. SUPER QUIET, DETAIL, YET WITH BODY AND COLOR, PS AUDIO REGENERATORS ARE AS GOOD OR PERHAPS A LITTLE TOUCH BETTER, THE REST DISTANT 3RD. CORE WAS 1/4 THE PRICE OF MY P-12 AND I STILL WOULD SAY THAT IS A GREAT BETTER UNIT BY A HAIR, BUT AT 1/10 THE PRICE, THE WINNER IS...LOL!

 

[Kingrex]

we each look for making audio better , but how do you know what you have observed is better. it’s hard and easy to be fooled myself included.
Rex tests to see I fully respect him for this.

This really strikes a note with me. I was reciently taught how to grain orient wire. How to determine which direction it was pulled through the dies. I built a few tools over the last month. One being a device to test spools of wire for grain orientation. The other a wire twisting bobbin to spin 10 awg thhn. Sure enough, just flipping the orientation of wire in my tester results in a different sound. Subtle, but my headphones pick it up.

The note strike for me is, any time a process is developed that can give a repeatable outcome is created, the question then becomes, what is right?

Seeing how this technique was shared with me by a far more knowledgable individual than myself, and more sophisticated tools have been utilized to validate the results than I have, I am going with what I was taught.

But is something good, bad, different is partly subjective. How many people does it take to say, this is better, compared to this is different, does it take to claim, this is a correct process. Can technical data be used. And that begs close to the OP original question. If your going to insert something into the power supply to your audio system, will it make it better.

 

[Kingrex]

Folsom said:

(Also note “noise” in electronics does not directly translate into audible artifacts, - as in something new - it aberrates the existing signal. It is mixing with the existing paint before it is applied, not being applied as a new color after the fact.)

That's a darn good point. Noise mixes with the existing power and signal. It is not laid over it. It blends into the power and the whole of the noise and the power becomes one. Stripping noise then becomes interesting. Are you really removing something, or just trying to reshape something that already has become?

I was mulling this and now not sure its entirely true. If a nuisance is injected into the power infrastructure, it does indeed alter the whole of the fundamental power signature. But it is also true the injected nuisance is very much there, as itself, acted upon by the fundamental source. A good scope can see it. That injected nuisance, altered by the fundamental could be targetted as a singular event. If it were targeted and canceled as a blend at the nuisance's fundamental frequency, its impact on the true fundamental power would be altered.

 

[Kingrex]

PURCHASED A CORE 600 FOR MY FRONT-END SYSTEM FROM UNDERWOOD HIFI AND IT SOUNDS AS GOOD AS ANY POWER CONDITIONER I'VE OWN FROM $5,000 AND UP AND YOU CAN NAME THE NAMES. SUPER QUIET, DETAIL, YET WITH BODY AND COLOR, PS AUDIO REGENERATORS ARE AS GOOD OR PERHAPS A LITTLE TOUCH BETTER, THE REST DISTANT 3RD. CORE WAS 1/4 THE PRICE OF MY P-12 AND I STILL WOULD SAY THAT IS A GREAT BETTER UNIT BY A HAIR, BUT AT 1/10 THE PRICE, THE WINNER IS...LOL!

Glad to hear you like an isolation transformer. And your PS Audio P-12.

 

[Folsom]

may I ask how a ground box and it’s peripheral wires act as an antenna
and before you reply look up the wavelength of 60 cycles lol.

I wish you were joking.

What do antennas look like? A metal object at the end of a wire. The shape of the object is tuned to the desired frequencies. They dangle outside of a complete circuit. (Exactly why there is no “ground” to these boxes)

What does the wavelength of 60hz have to do with anything?

 

[Folsom]

Folsom said:

(Also note “noise” in electronics does not directly translate into audible artifacts, - as in something new - it aberrates the existing signal. It is mixing with the existing paint before it is applied, not being applied as a new color after the fact.)



I was mulling this and now not sure its entirely true. If a nuisance is injected into the power infrastructure, it does indeed alter the whole of the fundamental power signature. But it is also true the injected nuisance is very much there, as itself, acted upon by the fundamental source. A good scope can see it. That injected nuisance, altered by the fundamental could be targetted as a singular event. If it were targeted and canceled as a blend at the nuisance's fundamental frequency, its impact on the true fundamental power would be altered.

That doesn’t mean much. The frequencies are basically all above the audible range. The power supply attenuates stuff in the audible range very effectively. You can filter before noise reaches the active parts.

Noise cannot get into the signal itself very easily except to aberrate it in at active part stages.

Tubes and transistors use signal as the pattern to shape the DC into increased current and or increased voltage version of the signal.

What sounds like noise or noise floor to the ear may not objectively have any relevance to noise. It may not exist or be the opposite to what people claim.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

@Folsom thanks for these recent posts. The "signal as pattern" concept is interesting and a clever way to put it.

Would you be able to add a little clarity to that "pattern" paragraph and the one that follows? I'm not quite connecting those dots in the way I think you intend them to relate.

Does "noise" exist as an inaccuracy between the signal "pattern" and the tubes, transistors, etc. "ability" to read that signal and perform the intended modulation to the current the designer had intended, as it passes output to the next component in the circuit?

Sorry for all the " " in there, but I am trying to communicate using human attributes assigned to inanimate components. Otherwise it feels like the movie Tron to me. Thanks to all for the interesting exchanges.

 

[Kingrex]

That doesn’t mean much. The frequencies are basically all above the audible range. The power supply attenuates stuff in the audible range very effectively. You can filter before noise reaches the active parts.

I thought you previously said the inaudible nuisance interference noise blends with the fundimental 60 herts wave and creates a new distorted wave. Isn't that impactful to the ability of the equipment power supply to operate at its designed level of performance.

 

[Folsom]

@Folsom thanks for these recent posts. The "signal as pattern" concept is interesting and a clever way to put it.

Would you be able to add a little clarity to that "pattern" paragraph and the one that follows? I'm not quite connecting those dots in the way I think you intend them to relate.

Does "noise" exist as an inaccuracy between the signal "pattern" and the tubes, transistors, etc. "ability" to read that signal and perform the intended modulation to the current the designer had intended, as it passes output to the next component in the circuit?

Sorry for all the " " in there, but I am trying to communicate using human attributes assigned to inanimate components. Otherwise it feels like the movie Tron to me. Thanks to all for the interesting exchanges.

I'm trying to put it into terms that are useful...

Imagine a straight line. Now add noise to it, so it looks slightly textured. (60hz would make the whole line look like a sinewave, but we're mostly talking high khz and mhz)

Now imagine you have a guitar note starting. That note is a shape that isn't straight, and it's at 1v. Your PSU's slightly textured line is at 36v but gain is set at 2v full sensitivity. The transistors or tubes form 18v from PSU into a guitar note starting. The transistors or tubes mold the PSU's DC power into an AC shape that matches the music. The catch is that the texture comes with it, so when this happens you get a change in output from what the input looks like. It's not a 1 for 1 conversion however, the texture's affect changes the audible range to some degree. But also high frequencies can do other weird things to the circuit like making it less stable when interaction with crossovers or low impedances. To get you to the point of understanding all of that I'd be just copying and pasting hundreds of pages of books.