Isolation Transformer and Balanced Power versus PS Audio Regenerator

[Kingrex]

FWIW, I just put on a demo of a Torus RM20 and applied it to AR Ref 160 monoblocks. Way better than the wall. I had cleaned the panel and set it to good condition so there was nothing wrong with the wall. Then we plugged a pair of REL N.32 into the Torus along with the AR Ref 160. 4 amps. Again, it was all much better than the wall. I have yet to see a Torus fail at elevating the performance of an amplifier.

I have heard over and over, a isolation transformer limits ampacity. There is truth to this. If I use an Ideal circuit analyzer and measure ampacity of a 10 awg solid wire direct from my main panel or through my Torus I get 889 amps vs 745 amps. Who cares???? 745 amps of available current delivery!!! Thats so far beyond what your equipment can draw. The more systems I apply them too, the more confident I am there is no drawback to a good isolation transformer.

I have said this before and I am repeating myself. Every power conditioner will function better if the source power feeding it it optimized. This is especially true for an isolation transformer. If you try and plug one into a 15 awg general use wall outlet, it will not perform near as well as if it were plugged into a 10 awg dedicated line. The same applies to all the other conditioners. They are not meant to fix a poor electrical distribution. They are designed to limit noise entering the system via the utility grid.

I do find it interesting I tested a home the other day. The THD on the 3rd and 5th and touch of 7th was 3.4%. When the 2 Everest were plugged into the wall, the THD jumped to 14%. And it was up into the 12th and higher. And, the load side of the Everest was still 3.4% on the 3rd and 5th. A good isolation transformer does not add noise back to the main line. 3rd and 5th harmonics will walk right through a isolation transformer also. They block RF from about 50k up.

A UPS main purpose is feeding a system in an appartment where you just can't alter the electrical. But you would probably get better sound by utilizing a SET amp and high efficiency speakers and plugging into the wall.

 

[LL21]

FWIW, I just put on a demo of a Torus RM20 and applied it to AR Ref 160 monoblocks. Way better than the wall. I had cleaned the panel and set it to good condition so there was nothing wrong with the wall. Then we plugged a pair of REL N.32 into the Torus along with the AR Ref 160. 4 amps. Again, it was all much better than the wall. I have yet to see a Torus fail at elevating the performance of an amplifier.

I have heard over and over, a isolation transformer limits ampacity. There is truth to this. If I use an Ideal circuit analyzer and measure ampacity of a 10 awg solid wire direct from my main panel or through my Torus I get 889 amps vs 745 amps. Who cares???? 745 amps of available current delivery!!! Thats so far beyond what your equipment can draw. The more systems I apply them too, the more confident I am there is no drawback to a good isolation transformer.

I have said this before and I am repeating myself. Every power conditioner will function better if the source power feeding it it optimized. This is especially true for an isolation transformer. If you try and plug one into a 15 awg general use wall outlet, it will not perform near as well as if it were plugged into a 10 awg dedicated line. The same applies to all the other conditioners. They are not meant to fix a poor electrical distribution. They are designed to limit noise entering the system via the utility grid.

I do find it interesting I tested a home the other day. The THD on the 3rd and 5th and touch of 7th was 3.4%. When the 2 Everest were plugged into the wall, the THD jumped to 14%. And it was up into the 12th and higher. And, the load side of the Everest was still 3.4% on the 3rd and 5th. A good isolation transformer does not add noise back to the main line. 3rd and 5th harmonics will walk right through a isolation transformer also. They block RF from about 50k up.

A UPS main purpose is feeding a system in an appartment where you just can't alter the electrical. But you would probably get better sound by utilizing a SET amp and high efficiency speakers and plugging into the wall.

Very interesting! I have spoken with Robert Koda...they signed off on our using the Torus UK AVR16...they were happier at the AVR32 but signed off on the AVR16. We have been extremely happy after trialing it and kept it ever since the in-system audition.

 

[Kingrex]

Very interesting! I have spoken with Robert Koda...they signed off on our using the Torus UK AVR16...they were happier at the AVR32 but signed off on the AVR16. We have been extremely happy after trialing it and kept it ever since the in-system audition.

How heavy is that AVR16?. I'm curious if a 16kva at 230 volts would be like a 32kva at 120 volts. If its more like a 32kva unit at 120 volts, that a sizeable amount of power. That would run 2 x 160 watt amps, 2 subs and front end. But I agree, larger is better. The owner of the Ref 160 wants a RM20. It worked. I would prefer he got a WM45 and let me power his whole system. Then sell his Everest to recoup $$$$. He is a pretty decent friend and local, so I said I would mount it for no additional cost. He's still overcoming the shock of spending around $85k on his vinyl rig. He's truely tapped out. We shall see.

 

[LL21]

The AVR16 weighs 116 lbs and puts out 16amps and 3.840 kVA with something like 30x that in spikes. I think Robert Koda said their system is running with conditioning around 5000kVA.

 

[Ron Resnick]

FWIW, I just put on a demo of a Torus RM20 and applied it to AR Ref 160 monoblocks. Way better than the wall.

Would you please elaborate on exactly what sonic ways it was "way better than the wall"?

I do find it interesting I tested a home the other day. The THD on the 3rd and 5th and touch of 7th was 3.4%. When the 2 Everest were plugged into the wall, the THD jumped to 14%. And it was up into the 12th and higher. And, the load side of the Everest was still 3.4% on the 3rd and 5th.

Would you please "unpack" this for us?

What was the measured electrical effect of the Everest?

What was the sonic effect of the Everest?

 

[LL21]

How heavy is that AVR16?. I'm curious if a 16kva at 230 volts would be like a 32kva at 120 volts. If its more like a 32kva unit at 120 volts, that a sizeable amount of power. That would run 2 x 160 watt amps, 2 subs and front end. But I agree, larger is better. The owner of the Ref 160 wants a RM20. It worked. I would prefer he got a WM45 and let me power his whole system. Then sell his Everest to recoup $$$$. He is a pretty decent friend and local, so I said I would mount it for no additional cost. He's still overcoming the shock of spending around $85k on his vinyl rig. He's truely tapped out. We shall see.

Knowing nothing about physics, the simple calcs do suggest 16amps at 240V is putting out the same as 32amps at 120V. 3,840 VA? Is that right?

 

[Another Johnson]

I notice that several do not like Regenerators.

I didn’t either until TVA started serving up brown outs. One afternoon my system did not sound as open as usual. Then my preamp shut itself down due to low voltage (below 95 VAC).

I started monitoring my power and discovered occasional grid instability issues with swings from under 100 to over 140. Conrad Johnson and Audio Research both give safe voltage limits. These swings were beyond CJ’s safe operating limits.

A power conditioner isn’t going to help in a brownout.

So I bought a used PS Audio P12 and was immediately able to hear more space around notes using my ARC gear. The CJ gear did not play well with the regenerator.

Later I picked up a P20 and sold my Niagara Power Condutioners. I really enjoy the regenerators. If I take them out of my high end audio systems (CJ is gone. Now running just ARC and Burmester based systems), their loss is noticeable.

I tried a regenerator in my “not high end” home theater. It made no difference there. So … maybe regenerators aren’t for every situation, but they do have the capability to deal with brownouts better than PCs.

 

[Onepoint5]

I have used high quality UPS like ABB switzerland and also low power audiophile AC regenerators.

This is ABB 20KVA ups :

View attachment 115276
View attachment 115277

The sound of all UPS and audiophile AC regenerators were not good except purepower 3000+.

I also used low power isolation transformer the result was not good and I am looking for buying 20KVA isolation transformer from denmark.

You must have your valid reasons for selecting 20kVA, the load figure gives some of this away. My audio system is more modest at 2200VA, even for factoring in 25% duty cycle current demand.

 

[Kingrex]

The AVR series Torus transformers stands for Auto Voltage Regulation. Its has current transformer that sense the output and autimatically adjust the input taps to keep the output stable at 120 vots. Its handlea Sags to 90 volts and swells to 130. If your power exceeds that range, the unit will turn off. You have to turn it back on manually. It won't start motorboating you power on and off. You can program it to turn on after a determined time. You can tell to turn on at a preset time to warm up gear. You can tell it to turn on individual banks of power in a delayed sequence. This is with larger units that have multiple cores. The 40=2, 60=3, 100=5.

 

[Kingrex]

You must have your valid reasons for selecting 20kVA, the load figure gives some of this away. My audio system is more modest at 2200VA, even for factoring in 25% duty cycle current demand.

Larger UPS generally have more robust output stages.

 

[Onepoint5]

Nice post. Your technical understanding of UPS and regenerators is much deeper than mine. Your conclusions are the same. I have been told only the Pure power 1500 unit sounded good. Who knows. I have heard a Stromtank on 2 systems on the front end. I don't know I would say it damaged anything. Both systems were well tuned and performes at a high level. I was not afforded an opportunity to listen through the unit and wall to compare. I was not afforded the opportunity to hear it compared to the Equitech 1500 rack mount sitting in a corner unused.

Thanks
With the installation of the unused Equi-tech, the situation at home is much the same problem.

Currently everything runs off an Equi-tech Q1000, which is exceeding its limit. I thought to split the sources with the lower power draw and use a existing 2000VA low capacitance Topaz for the pre and power amps. The problem with that is bonding the two earth (ground) points would have to be so close and low impedance to avoid voltage differences and if any unbalances occur, one secondary will affect the other. Essentially the secondaries of the transformers are in parallel which doesn't work at all, even for large power transformers.

It's a shame to not use the Q1000, but don't have much of a choice but to invest in a larger transformer and run the lot from the one source.

 

[Kingrex]

Thanks
With the installation of the unused Equi-tech, the situation at home is much the same problem.

Currently everything runs off an Equi-tech Q1000, which is exceeding its limit. I thought to split the sources with the lower power draw and use a existing 2000VA low capacitance Topaz for the pre and power amps. The problem with that is bonding the two earth (ground) points would have to be so close and low impedance to avoid voltage differences and if any unbalances occur, one secondary will affect the other. Essentially the secondaries of the transformers are in parallel which doesn't work at all, even for large power transformers.

It's a shame to not use the Q1000, but don't have much of a choice but to invest in a larger transformer and run the lot from the one source.

Why not a second Equitech. Thats a fine isolation transformer. I would not mess with Topaz. Its not the same league. Issues. Topaz is maybe for modem, router, switch.

I am not familiar with stacking secondary balanced power transformers. Can't Equitech take a separate unit on the amp and one on the front end.

Torus is primary balanced. With Torus I double up units.. Say a pair of RM20. Unless I get a single high output core, all the Torus are muti core. A 20 =1 core. 40 = 2 core. 60 = 3 core. 100 = 5 core. This provides a degree of separation between say amps, aubs, front end, digital, vinyl.

Its really no different to get a pair of stand alone units. You just feed them different. If you run the same type of branch wire and land the conductors under the same landing point in the main panel, you wont have ground iasues.

 

[Amir]

The more systems I apply them too, the more confident I am there is no drawback to a good isolation transformer.

I think Most AC Regenerators (PS Audio P20, Stormtank 5000, ABB 20KVA , APC 5KVA, Faratel ...) all are harmful for sound, they change the sound in a wrong way, for example ABB 20KVA change the harmonics (tone) and compress the sound.
low power AC regenerators limits dynamics , if you calculate the transient power of an amplifier (linear psu) the peak power at charging the capacitors are far more than rms power of amplifier so the UPS should have large capacity. I think for my system (350w/ch) the UPS should be over 20KVA .
The only good sounding AC regenerator for me is Pure power 3000 but it's power is not enough for my system so Purepower is good for low power tube systems not high power ss amplifiers.

Big Isolation transformers (10kva or 20kva) are better than many solutions but the problem is they change the bass in a high performance extended systems.
my plan is using 20KVa transformer before AC regenerator and check the bass.

DANTRAFO 20KVA

 

[Amir]

You must have your valid reasons for selecting 20kVA, the load figure gives some of this away. My audio system is more modest at 2200VA, even for factoring in 25% duty cycle current demand.

- My amplifier psu capacity is 2800VA
- the full system psu capacity is 6400VA
- UPS/Inverter is linear at 1/3 or 1/4 max load

6400VA x 3 = 19200VA


I have seen FM Acoustics have a paper and desribe their high power amplifiers need over 60A linear current


FM wrote :
"The FM 1811 requires an ultra-high quality, ultra low-impedance mains supply to deliver its promise. A dedicated supply that can provide a minimum of 125A peak / 25A cont. at 120V (or 60A peak / 12.5A cont. at 230V) is required.

FM 1811 (500W RMS to 8 ohm)"


imagine UPS should deliver 60A linear , 60 x 3 = 180A

230v x 180A = 40kVA

 

[Amir]

Are Balanced isolation transformers good for sound?

balanced isolation transformer change a parameter that you should consider.
Many amplifiers/dacs/... are sensitive to AC polarity, for example my TAD M700 have better sound when the AC polarity is positive, when I use balanced AC power the sound degrade .

you should first listen to your system at correct AC polarity then compare it to balanced power and check the result.

TAD do not like balance power of balanced isolation transformer

 

[Onepoint5]

Why not a second Equitech. Thats a fine isolation transformer. I would not mess with Topaz. Its not the same league. Issues. Topaz is maybe for modem, router, switch.

I am not familiar with stacking secondary balanced power transformers. Can't Equitech take a separate unit on the amp and one on the front end.

Torus is primary balanced. With Torus I double up units.. Say a pair of RM20. Unless I get a single high output core, all the Torus are muti core. A 20 =1 core. 40 = 2 core. 60 = 3 core. 100 = 5 core. This provides a degree of separation between say amps, aubs, front end, digital, vinyl.

Its really no different to get a pair of stand alone units. You just feed them different. If you run the same type of branch wire and land the conductors under the same landing point in the main panel, you wont have ground iasues.

I take your point on the separation for source and amps. When there are two balanced supplies, the grounded centre point of each equi-tech will be different potential. When connecting the xlr from the source to the amps this differential will cause noise to develop on the shield.
Although the grounds are common from the main panel, differences in routing and resistance can lead to differences. I don’t have time now during the week, on the weekend can measure the grounds between the Equitech and a Topaz (to prove a point). A Fluke 289 should measure a difference, if there isn’t any, then a second transformer is doable.
I had a lot of trouble with Equitech commercially but can source Torus product with less pain.

 

[Kris]

Very interesting findings And great discussion here !
I tried everything and every power solution has its positives and negatives. I am 230v area.
I liked positives a lot but could not accept negatives So I am back to wall after 3 years of experimenting.
Now I try to focuse on the proper grounding and power quality delivered to my home.
Still keep few power solutions and will keep testing them again and again.
Unfortunate nothing is better than a clean power from the street.
I Migh one day be ordering industrial trafo at my power operator just to have exclusive line from near
15.000 v main to that „personal” trafo that will perform 15kv to 230v .
This is what small companies get Delivered.
This is expensive to carry ( mothly fees apply) but it might be the final ultimate solution to all issues.

 

[Amir]

Unfortunate nothing is better than a clean power from the street.

+1

In Iran very few can order delicated 20KV to 230v transformer to have more clean AC from street but I can not.

every year the AC pollution increase and audio companies should think about designing a good AC regenerator.

I remember Mark Levinson NO.32 had an internal AC regenerator inside PSU but no other company had serious attension to AC quality.

when AC quality is worse the sound quality drop over 70%.

 

[Kris]

Emile of Taiko Audio when aquering the new facility for his company in Netherlands
made his purchese decission partially based on the fact that the building had already exclusive
industrial trafo installed.
I just try to learn from the best, test everything and try to adapt to my system if possible.
Thanks to Steve and Ron we have this fantastic platofrm to share our experience.

 

[Kingrex]

I don't believe a utility transformer is better at filtering noise than a Torus, Equitech or Controlled Power. Utility transformers are not built to be a noise filter. They probably do to some degree, but they are not designed with that intent in mind.

Torus has purpose built filtration.

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