Isolation Transformer and Balanced Power versus PS Audio Regenerator

[Atmasphere]

I had the PS Audio PPP, P5, and P20. The problem, for me, with all of the regenerators (including the P20) is that they add noise. If you think about it, it makes sense: the act of creating a new signal cannot be noiseless. Now, if that new noisy signal is less bad than your incoming AC power, that's fine. In my case, my wall power is not bad (~123V and ~2.5% THD). With a highly efficient horn system, I could definitely hear the noise the P20 was generating. It is also not really truly "regenerated" - it is generating based on what's being input. That's why the output depends on the input quality.
Also, none of these isolate between/among outlets. Components dump dirty AC back onto the circuit. The Power Plants do not filter that.

I switched to Shunyata Denali v2 and have been much happier.

The regenerators do not filter AC power. They do what they say they do- its regenerated.

A power supply converts the AC line to a DC Voltage which is then used to power a low distortion 60Hz oscillator whose output is applied to an amplifier which powers the output of the device. In this way noise on the AC line is not transferred to the output.

The amp uses a substantial amount of feedback so it can react to noise injected onto its output by reducing or removing it entirely.

What sort of noise did you encounter? I used the P20 at AXPONA a few years back and it worked extremely well maintaining line Voltage (always a problem at shows) and was very good at eliminating a substantial spike that randomly occurs in that venue. The speakers I was using were only 98dB but our system was very well behaved- nice and quiet.

 

[Zeotrope]

I did not say they filter, I said that they regenerate!
The "new" AC is certainly better than the incoming AC, but some noise is still passed through.
Garbage in = Garbage out.
Paul at PS Audio is a consummate salesman. He thinks he's Steve Jobs. You cannot create perfect "clean power" when you start with noisy power - for the same reason that a component cannot clean the incoming AC perfectly.

It's an OK product and especially good if you have really bad power (voltage fluctuations and/or noise); but otherwise, there are better products available, especially for a high-end system that will amplify any noise.

 

[Atmasphere]

It is also not really truly "regenerated" - it is generating based on what's being input. That's why the output depends on the input quality.

Hm. This is what you wrote previously. Its basically incorrect; if not 'truly regenerated' then a filter must be involved. FWIW I tend to take things very literally and am also an engineer so these words might mean something to me they don't mean to you.

You cannot create perfect "clean power" when you start with noisy power

Actually you can and that technology has been around a long time.

You didn't mention what sort of noise you encountered that you attributed to the PSAudio.

 

[Zeotrope]

I am an engineer as well.

You cannot regenerate a brand new signal. It is using the incoming AC to create an 'improved' version of it. It's just a simple fact. You have dirty power being input. Some of that noise will make its way into the output. The "Regenerator" is really just an amp.

Even PS Audio admits this - you have to search through their forum, but Ed and Paul (reluctantly) admit that the output is not noise free and is still a function of the incoming AC.

What noise - elevated background noise that would vary by time of day - a telltale sign that the "regenerator" is passing noise through.

The other problem with it is that EMI/RFI noise is passed through to the output. This is why adding 3M RFI/EMI sheets in certain areas will reduce noise. There is a huge writeup on this on the PSA Forum.

 

[DetroitVinylRob]

I did the same, and was happier too. I still believe power regeneration is valuable for devices that have motors, tape machines, CD players, turntables, because you get a near perfect voltage and near perfect sign wave. Had a PPP moved to Shunyata Denali V2. Two actually for all signal path electronics. Because my power amps and fieldcoil ps x4 are next to loudspeakers, the rest is on an adjacent wall.

 

[Zeotrope]

I did the same, and was happier too. I still believe power regeneration is valuable for devices that have motors, tape machines, CD players, turntables, because you get a near perfect voltage and near perfect sign wave. Had a PPP moved to Shunyata Denali V2. Two actually for all signal path electronics. Because my power amps and fieldcoil ps x4 are next to loudspeakers, the rest is on an adjacent wall.

Yes, same here.
BTW, the Field Coil PSUs really benefit from cleaner power and grounding. You probably know this already. If you think about it, the field coil is essentially in the signal path as it's half the equation of generating sound -- just like permanent magnets affect the sound.

 

[QuadDiffuser]

Gentlemen, the following video provides some objective measurements on the effectiveness of the PS Audio Powerplant (in this case the Powerplant 12) in taking extremely crappy and noisy AC at the input and "regenerating it" into pristine AC with perfect sinewave at the output. The bottom line is that it works.

However, the audibility of clean AC sinewave (vs dirty AC) has not been tested or verified through double-blinded random controlled testing. Therefore, the subjective system-dependent "benefits" are still open to vigorous debate and discussion. But that's what this thread is for - the more anecdotal examples, the better!

 

[Zeotrope]

Exactly what I was saying. "There are power conditioners that lower noise more than the PSA AC Regenerators". That's noise. AC voltage fluctuations do get stabilized.
It depends on what you need: do you have AC voltage that is more than ~10% off the nominal 120/220? Does your voltage vary? If so, the PSA products may be better than a passive filter.
If you are after noise reduction, the PSA Regenerators are not the best on the market.

 

[JohnP]

Who has compared directly in the same system, on an apples-to-apples basis, an isolation transformer and balanced power device (e.g., Equi-Tech or Torus or Furman P-2400 IT) to a PS Audio power regenerator?

What sonic differences did you hear between these two different power solutions?

What were the advantages and disadvantages of each system?

Did you notice any negative or deleterious effects on the sound from using either type of device versus plugging the system directly into the wall outlets?

I tried balanced power going into my DAC, transport, phono-pre, head-amp and into a low power amp. In each case the sound was much improved. Balanced power gave the system more air, low level articulation, more 3-D presentation and a blacker background. Definitely a nice improvement.

John

 

[PhP]

I completely agree, I have the same result with my new P20 2025.

 

[PhP]

Hello
I agree that P20 regenerate AC and for me it remove all noise due du DC offset (asymmetrical AC sine wave) and also help in the sens that my AC fluctuate from 228 to 247v (in France). So P20 remove all noise from the audio system as it use a huge toroidal transformer and output perfect 230v. I still use very good power cords at the output of P20 to power may components but no other filters. I also use AC grounding with artificial ground box. This do not remove noise but gives a naturalness to the sound especially highs.

The regenerators do not filter AC power. They do what they say they do- it's regenerated.

A power supply converts the AC line to a DC Voltage which is then used to power a low distortion 60Hz oscillator whose output is applied to an amplifier which powers the output of the device. In this way noise on the AC line is not transferred to the output.

The amp uses a substantial amount of feedback so it can react to noise injected onto its output by reducing or removing it entirely.

What sort of noise did you encounter? I used the P20 at AXPONA a few years back and it worked extremely well maintaining line Voltage (always a problem at shows) and was very good at eliminating a substantial spike that randomly occurs in that venue. The speakers I was using were only 98dB but our system was very well behaved- nice and quiet.

 

[PhP]

I'm so impressed by this PS P20 that I am now PS AUDIO dealer for these regenerators.
I tested my mono blocks on P20 and direct from the wall. My monoblocks sound much better if they are powered from P20 high current outputs, by a clear margin. If this was predicted by the amplifiers manufacturer, this proves that monoblocks of 450w@4ohm with 75A peak are easily powered by P20 as it was clear too for STEREO TIMES, STEREOPHILE, HTA and others.
Test in French

https://www.phpaudio.fr/_files/ugd/72948d_e3512b638a7a4f86aa159f9dc58fa2ef.pdf

 

[PhP]

I see a lot of test about regenerators. What is interesting with regenerators, is having a pure sine AC wave at output with no distorsion and lower impedance that the mains. PS AUDIO P20 does this, very easy to see on the screen but also on my oscilloscope. Removing DC offset is mandatory for high end audio but also for more modest audio systems. Listening tests done here were easily in favor to P20 as power from the wall. A famous electronic designer told me that it was a predictive result as it is the only way to have no AC issues that could saturate transformers, and also this helps electronic power supplies to be filled easier, even if this is very less interesting than having no sine wave flats or difference (DC). That said, then if very good power cords could (should) be used after P20/P15, no conditionner or fancy AC filters should be used.

Gentlemen, the following video provides some objective measurements on the effectiveness of the PS Audio Powerplant (in this case the Powerplant 12) in taking extremely crappy and noisy AC at the input and "regenerating it" into pristine AC with perfect sinewave at the output. The bottom line is that it works.

However, the audibility of clean AC sinewave (vs dirty AC) has not been tested or verified through double-blinded random controlled testing. Therefore, the subjective system-dependent "benefits" are still open to vigorous debate and discussion. But that's what this thread is for - the more anecdotal examples, the better!

 

[Kris]

I went via all of this including all kinds of regenerators ,conditioners , 7 balanced trafos (to isolate each component) , StromTank , p20 , Gigawatt.
They all do something good but after some time you always get to the point that they also TAKE AWAY something good.
So in my 25 years journey I tried everything and got always back to play without those.

The only clear improvement was 2 sepatate 10 AWG Oyaide solid cords directly from the main power panel.
So I would invest in that first if I was You.

Recently I contacted Karen from Transparent Audio and by her advice I tried Transparent Opus power cables and Transparent Opus Power Isolator.
I am amazed. I can say that this will be my main investment once I get back on track with some cash.
It will cost a fortune if I decide to use it for every component but this is the only solution that works wonders in my system without taking any of the good things.
Give it a try.

I would personally prefer one Transparent Opus power cable than all of those other " solutions" together.

 

[Atmasphere]

I am an engineer as well.

You cannot regenerate a brand new signal. It is using the incoming AC to create an 'improved' version of it. It's just a simple fact. You have dirty power being input. Some of that noise will make its way into the output. The "Regenerator" is really just an amp.

Even PS Audio admits this - you have to search through their forum, but Ed and Paul (reluctantly) admit that the output is not noise free and is still a function of the incoming AC.

What noise - elevated background noise that would vary by time of day - a telltale sign that the "regenerator" is passing noise through.

The other problem with it is that EMI/RFI noise is passed through to the output. This is why adding 3M RFI/EMI sheets in certain areas will reduce noise. There is a huge writeup on this on the PSA Forum.

[emphasis added] That's a matter of how well the power supplies of the re-generator are and how much feedback is applied to the amplifier within. But I take your point.

There's a company called Elgar that many years ago made excellent AC power conditioners. Their technique was to use a large isolation transformer which has windings for feedback and a power supply for an amplifier. A low distortion oscillator is synchronized to the AC line frequency and its output compared to that of the isolation transformer. An error Voltage is produced which is amplified by the amplifier and applied to the feedback windings, which also buck the transformer. In this way the output THD was quite low right up to the full current capacity of the conditioner and the AC line Voltage regulated. They are quite effective. But all of them I've seen have had to be rebuilt due to their age and they have a rather noisy fan, being built for commercial/industrial applications. They appear to have been made in the 1970s.

 

[Lagonda]

I'm so impressed by this PS P20 that I am now PS AUDIO dealer for these regenerators.
I tested my mono blocks on P20 and direct from the wall. My monoblocks sound much better if they are powered from P20 high current outputs, by a clear margin. If this was predicted by the amplifiers manufacturer, this proves that monoblocks of 450w@4ohm with 75A peak are easily powered by P20 as it was clear too for STEREO TIMES, STEREOPHILE, HTA and others.
Test in French

https://www.phpaudio.fr/_files/ugd/72948d_e3512b638a7a4f86aa159f9dc58fa2ef.pdf

What mono amps are you using ?

 

[PhP]

Hi Chris
all

I went via all of this including all kinds of regenerators ,conditioners , 7 balanced trafos (to isolate each component) , StromTank , p20 , Gigawatt.
They all do something good but after some time you always get to the point that they also TAKE AWAY something good.
So in my 25 years journey I tried everything and got always back to play without those.

The only clear improvement was 2 sepatate 10 AWG Oyaide solid cords directly from the main power panel.
So I would invest in that first if I was You.

Recently I contacted Karen from Transparent Audio and by her advice I tried Transparent Opus power cables and Transparent Opus Power Isolator.
I am amazed. I can say that this will be my main investment once I get back on track with some cash.
It will cost a fortune if I decide to use it for every component but this is the only solution that works wonders in my system without taking any of the good things.
Give it a try.

I would personally prefer one Transparent Opus power cable than all of those other " solutions" together.

these experiments depend on your AC quality. If you have any DC offset, nothing cure appart regenerators, PS AUDIO or other brands. Of course I changed my mains 2 years ago ad do not use AC outlets. I made an "external line" with high quality power cables for PRANAWIRE connected to unfiltered power strips from OMEGA AUDIO CONCEPT. This was a surprise how they improve the sound vs using state of the art power cable from AC outlets in wall, wire with serious power cable but not outstanding. We get the same conclusion. Here the benefit of P20 is mandatory, but I never have success with isolators or line filters active or somewhat "passive". But if this TRANSPARENT OPUS PC + isolator is your reference, this is a good thing.
I will also use Ground Master AC from PRANAWIRE, which will be useful in my house.

 

[Lagonda]

Hi Chris
all

these experiments depend on your AC quality. If you have any DC offset, nothing cure appart regenerators, PS AUDIO or other brands. Of course I changed my mains 2 years ago ad do not use AC outlets. I made an "external line" with high quality power cables for PRANAWIRE connected to unfiltered power strips from OMEGA AUDIO CONCEPT. This was a surprise how they improve the sound vs using state of the art power cable from AC outlets in wall, wire with serious power cable but not outstanding. We get the same conclusion. Here the benefit of P20 is mandatory, but I never have success with isolators or line filters active or somewhat "passive". But if this TRANSPARENT OPUS PC + isolator is your reference, this is a good thing.
I will also use Ground Master AC from PRANAWIRE, which will be useful in my house.

Where in France are you located ? A major city ?