Isolation Transformer and Balanced Power versus PS Audio Regenerator
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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Interesting thread so many observations to ponder
a made for the purpose audio transformer should be better as it of done well a few design changes to help us.
the size of the transformer is also very f great concern and less then good results can at times be traced back to size used.
I trust ralph but do have some questions
1- center tap to lower common mode noise I’ve made these , what does he mean the CT is not exactly centered . I know what he means but I can’t see how it’s so important. we
Don’t use the tap it’s just becomes a grounding point on secondary side.
this is for Amir with any observations you make did you measure to see in actual data why ?
I am a fan of regeneration as it’s truly clean
I’ve seen in use CT for preamps and the like but not amps to my knowledge
a made for the purpose audio transformer should be better as it of done well a few design changes to help us.
the size of the transformer is also very f great concern and less then good results can at times be traced back to size used.
I trust ralph but do have some questions
1- center tap to lower common mode noise I’ve made these , what does he mean the CT is not exactly centered . I know what he means but I can’t see how it’s so important. we
Don’t use the tap it’s just becomes a grounding point on secondary side.
this is for Amir with any observations you make did you measure to see in actual data why ?
I am a fan of regeneration as it’s truly clean
I’ve seen in use CT for preamps and the like but not amps to my knowledge
Yes, NO.33 power amplifier has AC regenerator only for the voltage gain section and the final power stage of MO.33 is connected to Wall AC.
no other company in high end history have this AC generator.
I agree you the final solution is AC regenerator but there is no good ac regenerator in this market for over 100w amplifiers, for under 100w amplifiers in this market there is good option: purepower 3000+.
kevin designer of Living Voice use Victron Inverter.
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on small scale amps and devices regen is good
we can get close in the psu if on small scale stuff.
One thing that puzzles me is battery power devices
We both know batteries are very noisy in ways unlike AC power
Then the use of various filters is needed and they each have their own noise lol. regulators being one of them.
Yet all use regulators I wonder on small scale devices how much would be effected if no regulation is done in a SS way but just chokes and caps in multiple stages
we can get close in the psu if on small scale stuff.
One thing that puzzles me is battery power devices
We both know batteries are very noisy in ways unlike AC power
Then the use of various filters is needed and they each have their own noise lol. regulators being one of them.
Yet all use regulators I wonder on small scale devices how much would be effected if no regulation is done in a SS way but just chokes and caps in multiple stages
Some experts believe the Batteries are not good source of currents/power (for AC Regenerators) and they prefer to use Main AC for input of AC regeneration.
I do not have valid information about batteries.
I do not have valid information about batteries.
If you look batteries as a power source you quickly see there issues.
In short it’s not the voltage getting lower as discharge
they make noise in pulses and have voltage spikes and dips.
In short it’s not the voltage getting lower as discharge
they make noise in pulses and have voltage spikes and dips.
The problem with center taps in general is they cannot be perfectly placed. In a power transformer of any kind, this means that the center tap can put current in the ground if it is tied to it. IOW its never actually 'balanced'. That is why in balanced line connections for audio, center taps are not used and to the best of my knowledge don't exist in transformers used for this purpose.
If you think about it, the regular home power system of two connections for power and a ground connection that normally does not carry current is exactly the same system as a balanced line carrying audio. The ground is a safety thing and so if the ground does wind up with current its pointing at a malfunction or design flaw in the equipment used on that power connection.
Some good points made.
Various equipment does respond differently to the various filters, regenerators and isolation transformers. I have heard this with the various amps I have, as well as front end equipment.
How many people optimize their power supply to support the use of any "conditioner". That is a first step. Even PS Audio will say the unit sounds better with a good power cord.
Just to be fair, I am now a paying advertiser on whatsbestforum. And I am a rep for Torus. I have a bias and sure, I want to make money for all my time invested in figuring this stuff out. I have been at it since 2014. Really looking at what make an audio system tic when it comes to electrical power. I will be the first to tell you, don't buy a Torus or Everest or AQ5000 till you optimally set up the infrastructure of your home to support it. They are not band aids. They are purpose built devices that oddly rely on a very good electrical supply to do what they were designed to do. In the Suncoast audio interview with Caelin on the Altaire grounding box, Caelin said their listening/evaluation room has its own dedicated isolation transformer feeding it. That should tell you something.
I am ordering a Altaira signal ground soon. Our friend SCAudiophile convinced me.
When anyone has me design a new room and I am using a big wall mount, I always encourage them to have unfiltered premium circuits in the room. Just in case. Especially at the rack. I don't have near enough data and customer feedback on how the various filters perform on the front end. What I do believe is true is that most well made filters will improve upon the front end. Most filters struggle with amplifiers. Torus seems to have significantly less issues and great upside with amps when you set the electrical foundation correct to support them. But having unfiltered circuits from the panel that feeds the Torus, going to the rack and/or amp wall is not a bad idea.
I firmly believe power and room are the top 2 foundational component you need for any 2 channel stereo to reach its full potential. I use to be very suspect of filters. I know see, done right and powered properly, they are almost a necessity. There is too much noise from the home and the street.
Various equipment does respond differently to the various filters, regenerators and isolation transformers. I have heard this with the various amps I have, as well as front end equipment.
How many people optimize their power supply to support the use of any "conditioner". That is a first step. Even PS Audio will say the unit sounds better with a good power cord.
Just to be fair, I am now a paying advertiser on whatsbestforum. And I am a rep for Torus. I have a bias and sure, I want to make money for all my time invested in figuring this stuff out. I have been at it since 2014. Really looking at what make an audio system tic when it comes to electrical power. I will be the first to tell you, don't buy a Torus or Everest or AQ5000 till you optimally set up the infrastructure of your home to support it. They are not band aids. They are purpose built devices that oddly rely on a very good electrical supply to do what they were designed to do. In the Suncoast audio interview with Caelin on the Altaire grounding box, Caelin said their listening/evaluation room has its own dedicated isolation transformer feeding it. That should tell you something.
I am ordering a Altaira signal ground soon. Our friend SCAudiophile convinced me.
When anyone has me design a new room and I am using a big wall mount, I always encourage them to have unfiltered premium circuits in the room. Just in case. Especially at the rack. I don't have near enough data and customer feedback on how the various filters perform on the front end. What I do believe is true is that most well made filters will improve upon the front end. Most filters struggle with amplifiers. Torus seems to have significantly less issues and great upside with amps when you set the electrical foundation correct to support them. But having unfiltered circuits from the panel that feeds the Torus, going to the rack and/or amp wall is not a bad idea.
I firmly believe power and room are the top 2 foundational component you need for any 2 channel stereo to reach its full potential. I use to be very suspect of filters. I know see, done right and powered properly, they are almost a necessity. There is too much noise from the home and the street.
Ralph first thanks for taking the time to reply
next the power transformer feeding our homes in most cases is 3 phase so while these some similarity it’s not the same
Even if the center tap is not exact and I see your point the transformer is still
Isolated from its primary
the new center tap becomes a new power source
Next common mode is lowered greatly yes not stopped but the premise or purpose is still there.
many preamps and even amps do this old
And new. amps more Likly need this to obtain a higher voltage swing right. so while we all point to dirty power how many measure to see what’s left at the filtered secondary dc used to feed the line stages
Bypass caps to go after what’s left and effect the varying freq effect on total caps. lower cap size yields better in lower freq but is slower on higher freq
now KINGREX takes the time to measure what he can to know the effective possibility of changes.
This is why I don't use a passive transformer if I'm being serious about cleaning up the AC power. If there are already harmonics on the AC line, many transformers will pass the harmonics along, whether balanced or not is irrelevant. The most pesky harmonic, the 5th (according to papers I've read over the last 30 years) is pretty hard to filter out passively.
100% agree. I have seen no filter or isolation transformer from any company filter low order harmonics. They walk through all of them. What is odd is how I see extreme reflected harmonics back to the main power panel from many name brand filters. High numbers. Like 12% or more on the branch. If you had anything else on that duplex or branch, its getting obliterated with noise. The main panel with the larger bus seems to be able to sum some amount of the affect out. But it does raise the THD on the entire electrical system.
Yea, I was not happy with the word. Clobbered is better.
What's funny, if you placed any other conditioner on that branch, the back noise is walking right through one another. That could make a ringing mess between the two. He had 2, same brand and model on the same branch wire. You saw the Fluke scope meter leap up when they were turned on. The house at the main panel did not read that bad. Average.
The Mirus are for industrial,use. They can increase the output voltage radically if they are lightly loaded. They are intended for three phase VSD harmonics blocking only. The example was to show how magnetics in transformers can reduce harmonics to a certain extent by themselves without relying on a bank of separate filters. I would not recommend the Mirus type filters for audio use.
Reviews (with objective data) of the Puritan 156 (passive) and PS Audio Power Plant 12 (active):
Did you also have the 2kVA transformer wired for balanced output? If so, it becomes a 1kVA (current rating is halved).
I use a 10kVA -31 series Topaz (.0005pf) wired for balanced output and my dynamics are better than run straight into the wall. I also realize this is overkill for most.
The biggest impact on our sound is the room the speakers are in and its acoustics. It has been the biggest improvement in my system. No gear, cables, or conditioner of any type has done more than getting good room acoustics that allow your speakers and gear to perform as they were designed to. I got zip-against conditioners, and I owned several. Today, I do not need them, and I am hearing more detail, better imaging, better balance, better punch, and much better midbass and overall a better natural musical system, and the only thing I upgraded was my room and its acoustics. Spend $5,000 on your room instead of a power conditioner. I drank the kool-aide on conditioners for over 20 years of always having one, believing they were a must for a good system ( because magazines say they were a must) Good marketing, but now I realize on much your room impacts the sound we hear and going further why we pick the gear we have is how it sounded in that audio room. My room is now quiet, to where I can hear when I record was used on a CD for older music and you can hear the noise clearly from the vinyl discs used, players' chairs moving, and even sheets of music pages being flipped during a classical music piece on one recording that I never heard before. Room matters as much as good gear or good speakers.
Your room matters. In as much as it can ONLY subtract from the sound that your gear + speakers create. Rooms can add nothing beneficial.
The best and worst sound I've ever gotten in my listening rooms has been from untreated rooms.
Yes, for balanced output the total capacity is still 2kVA, the voltage between ground and lines are 120V, so half, but current is 2000/240.
Now I use a small 500VA Denefrips transformer for sources, pre amp and amps are connected to the wall directly, via a surge suppression emc t type filter to block transients, spikes.
10kVA, wow, a real back breaker that one.
Anytime you use a transformer, to prevent distortion of the AC waveform the transformer should never be loaded past 50% of its rating. Higher ordered harmonics will otherwise be generated in enough quantity to be harmful. The 5th harmonic (300Hz in the US) is one well known to cause problems such as noisy, hotter power transformers, diode noise and can cause synchronous motors to possibly spin in the wrong direction.
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