Isolation Transformer and Balanced Power versus PS Audio Regenerator

[Kingrex]

The 101.4% THD is probably a particular current spectra measured with the clamp, not the voltage. I shows a full rectifier action. The voltage spectra and its THD were shown in the first figure.

Disclaimer - I have never used this particular device and we do not know how the measurements were carried - this is just a suggestion!

This is all off topic now.
Good point here.
Wil. Show images of what your attaching to and with what to take your measurements.

 

[wil]

The 101.4% THD is probably a particular current spectra measured with the clamp, not the voltage. I shows a full rectifier action. The voltage spectra and its THD were shown in the first figure.

Disclaimer - I have never used this particular device and we do not know how the measurements were carried - this is just a suggestion!

Yes, in the picture of the reading, (with the Fluke 345, measured at main panel on the dedicated audio line) it did once read 101 % THD on Current not Voltage.

I've also since been told that the +100 THD reading

"... just means that the Harmonic content exceeds the fundamental 60Hz waveform. Not terribly unusual with A readings."

In any case, the two questions I'm interested to solve are:

1. What is responsible for the low Power Factor? Pump station or other factors at house? My bets are on the pump station.

2. Is the TT7 conditioner correcting for power factor and improving the Voltage Sine wave? And how would I measure this after the TT7?

Also, curiously, when I increase the Power Factor from it's baseline 74 to 95 by adding a 500 watt resistive load (light bulbs), the Current waveform improves but the Voltage waveform appears unchanged.

 

[microstrip]

Yes, in the picture of the reading, (with the Fluke 345, measured at main panel on the dedicated audio line) it did once read 101 % THD on Current not Voltage.

I've also since been told that the +100 THD reading

"... just means that the Harmonic content exceeds the fundamental 60Hz waveform. Not terribly unusual with A readings."

In any case, the two questions I'm interested to solve are:

1. What is responsible for the low Power Factor? Pump station or other factors at house? My bets are on the pump station.

2. Is the TT7 conditioner correcting for power factor and improving the Voltage Sine wave? And how would I measure this after the TT7?

Also, curiously, when I increase the Power Factor from it's baseline 74 to 95 by adding a 500 watt resistive load (light bulbs), the Current waveform improves but the Voltage waveform appears unchanged.

I am not an expert in mains power, but it seems to me a lot of misunderstanding shows in this thread. Power factor is a mainly a characteristic of the load, not of the mains and is usually irrelevant for the small loads such as typical audio equipment. Power factor is a consequence of voltage and current drawn by equipment not being in phase - surely if you connect a resistive load in parallel you get a better power factor and everything shows better, as distortion is normalized to average values. But then the cure is worst than disease - the current in the mains wires and associated voltage drops become much higher!

In general power factor is only an issue with high loads or when the resistance of the power lines is very hight. How much variation do you get in mains voltage when you switch the 500W load on and off?

 

[Kingrex]

I understand power factor (PF) as a mains problem affecting the load.
In the most simple and using incorrect numbers. A sine wave top crests at 120 volts and the bottom crest at 120 volts so there is 240 volts between the top and bottom. PF is lagging power. So in a 20Amp circuit, as the top is cresting at 120 volts, the available ampacity is say equivalent to a 18 awg wire. As the voltage starts to fall to say 110 volts, the wire is now 16 awg. As it get to 100 volts is like a 14 awg wire. As it hit 90 volts its finally a 12 awg wire. That means your amplifier wants 120 volts with power equal to a 12 awg wire but all the utility is giving is 120 volts with an 18 awg wire or 90 volts with a 12 awg wire. Your amplifier is starved of power. Your amp wants to see 120 volts with a 12 awg wire.
We try to remedy this by putting capacitors into the circuit. Caps store and dump power very fast. As the sine wave crests at 120 volts, the caps dump all their power so you get a 12 awg ampacity at 120 volts. The capapcitor bank has to be sized correct. If you add to many capacitors you could end up with power leading the voltage. Too few and its still lags behind. Leading is worse than lagging.

 

[wil]

I am not an expert in mains power, but it seems to me a lot of misunderstanding shows in this thread. Power factor is a mainly a characteristic of the load, not of the mains and is usually irrelevant for the small loads such as typical audio equipment. Power factor is a consequence of voltage and current drawn by equipment not being in phase - surely if you connect a resistive load in parallel you get a better power factor and everything shows better, as distortion is normalized to average values. But then the cure is worst than disease - the current in the mains wires and associated voltage drops become much higher!

In general power factor is only an issue with high loads or when the resistance of the power lines is very hight. How much variation do you get in mains voltage when you switch the 500W load on and off?

My Voltage runs on the high side, usually 123-124.5. It doesn't change at all when the 500 watts goes on and off.

 

[Forte]

Latest P20 review powering 6 Rels

PS Audio Power Plant P20 AC Regenerator by Moreno Mitchell

PS Audio, A company that needs no introductions The PS Audio Company has always intrigued me with its impressive and long-standing array of outstanding products. Since my first visit to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in 2008, I had my first encounter with the company while hanging out with my...

v2.stereotimes.com

 

[microstrip]

My Voltage runs on the high side, usually 123-124.5. It doesn't change at all when the 500 watts goes on and off.

It must change - Ohm's law says so. If you do not see it you will need an instrument with better sensitivity!

Or simply try the test with a 2500 W load.

 

[Kingrex]

Latest P20 review powering 6 Rels

PS Audio Power Plant P20 AC Regenerator by Moreno Mitchell

PS Audio, A company that needs no introductions The PS Audio Company has always intrigued me with its impressive and long-standing array of outstanding products. Since my first visit to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest in 2008, I had my first encounter with the company while hanging out with my...

v2.stereotimes.com

Feels a bit of a vague review.

 

[K3RMIT]

Regarding signwave distortion IE dc on the mains has little
effect on smaller wattage transformers. Now install a large iso balanced or not now the distortion overloads the transformer exceeding or approaching saturatio. This adds more noise. did you try the dc blocker on the audio devices with no iso transformer
im guessing a big jump with no transformer.

 

[Phillyb]

I’m curious whether anyone has had any experience placing a ‘balanced“ bifilar toroidal transformer between the output duplex of a PS Audio AC regenerator (such as the P12, P15, or P20) and a source component‘s power supply.

Bifilar toroidals weigh nearly twice as much as an equivalent generic toroidal. From the website of the manufacturer of bifilar toroidal, Plitron, who supplies toroidals to Torus:

https://www.plitron.com/custom-toroidal-transformers/power-conditioning-2/

“The Balanced Power concept consists of a 1:1 isolation transformer (ie 120 VAC In/Out) with a centre tapped secondary winding. The ‘Balanced’ refers to a Bifilar wound secondary – meaning both secondary halves are wound simultaneously, turn for turn – thus each of the 60 Volt sections are mirror imaged and matched to the theoretical limit for resistance, capacitance, and inductance.”

Specifically, I’m interested in connecting a bifilar transformer (products from Equi=tech, PLiXiR, or Torus) at the PS Audio P20’s output duplex to power my two MSB Technology mono powerbases, perhaps in the future, MSB Technology transport’s powerbase. This, to reduce whatever noise there may be in the ground connection, as well as in the rest of the AC sine wave (both common-mode, as well as higher frequency noise from 1kHz upwards).

Although the P20’s claim to fame is its dynamic voltage regulation and low output impedance (ability to deliver oodles of current on demand), it‘s still extremely susceptible to noise on the AC input which easily passes through to even its supposedly “regenerated” AC outputs, and generates its own idiosyncratic wide-band high frequency noise, hence my curiosity in adding a balanced transformer...

No, the waveform output is clean, if you own one like me you can see the incoming and outgoing waveforms and other stats. These do what they claim to do and it is not just a different sound, which any device will give you, but a better sound, what you like about your system directly from the wall just gets better. For front-end gear, all you would need is a P-12. My amps stay plugged into the walls.

 

[JayDee]

No, the waveform output is clean, if you own one like me you can see the incoming and outgoing waveforms and other stats. These do what they claim to do and it is not just a different sound, which any device will give you, but a better sound, what you like about your system directly from the wall just gets better. For front-end gear, all you would need is a P-12. My amps stay plugged into the walls.

Check out the Symetrica by z-axis audio. Tyree balanced supplies with a common ground for a complete system. It is very special

 

[Atmasphere]

If the conditioner or transformer 'solution' for AC power can't claim low THD (or doesn't spec it at all) look elsewhere, unless you don't mind flushing money down the loo.

The PSAudio regenerators do spec THD and keep it low. They are some of the very few power conditioners made for high end audio that actually work.

 

[Forte]

Agreed. The newer p12, p15 and p20 are much better than the previous gen.

 

[Gjo]

Would be interested in knowledgeable commentary on this review of the PS Audio PowerPlant 12 on Audiosciencereview.com.

 

[Atmasphere]

Would be interested in knowledgeable commentary on this review of the PS Audio PowerPlant 12 on Audiosciencereview.com.

I wasn't aware of this test and its interesting to see.

I've recommended Elgar power conditioners a lot in the past. They have a guaranteed 0.5%THD. It would be interesting to see what Amirm makes of it.

I don't know of any other 'high end audio' power conditioner that has active circuitry allowing it to reduce THD on the AC line as shown in this review. Not sure if any of them would be worth measuring.

At any rate if you really wanted to see a conditioner do its thing, the thing to do would be feed it AC power that has a significant 5th harmonic (300Hz) and see how well it filtered this out.

 

[microstrip]

If the conditioner or transformer 'solution' for AC power can't claim low THD (or doesn't spec it at all) look elsewhere, unless you don't mind flushing money down the loo.

The PSAudio regenerators do spec THD and keep it low. They are some of the very few power conditioners made for high end audio that actually work.

Unless people prefer the sound with mains distortion. Long ago I owned a medium power PSAudio that could generate several mains forms with distortion, including asymmetrical waves. In reviews, some people preferred the custom distorted mains!

Some turntable manufacturers drive their synchronous motors with synthesized sine waves with some harmonic distortion.

My main concern with mains distortion is the mechanical buzz of the transformer - if the transformer resonates mechanically at the mains low harmonics, a small amount of distortion can generate an extremely annoying transformer noise.

 

[Atmasphere]

Some turntable manufacturers drive their synchronous motors with synthesized sine waves with some harmonic distortion.

My main concern with mains distortion is the mechanical buzz of the transformer - if the transformer resonates mechanically at the mains low harmonics, a small amount of distortion can generate an extremely annoying transformer noise.

The latter is that pesky 5th harmonic. Most conditioners offered to high end audio simply don't do anything about it. The 5th harmonic also messes with syncronous motors, like are using in a number of turntables and tape machines.

 

[highstream]

I have a P15 and it seems to do a good job. If I and other P15/20 owners are fooling ourselves, it's certainly an enjoyable ride (which is the point after all). Here are some posts on the matter of measurement and, also specifically, about Audio Science Review:

- https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/to-test-or-not-to-test-that-is-the-question-part-one/
- https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/audio-science-review-review.9827/
- https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...ments-deconstructing-asr-amirs-hack-job.6442/
- https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/when-measurements-take-a-backseat
- https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/the-price-of-flat/
- https://www.psaudio.com/askpaulvideo/measurements-vs-listening/

The Symetrica looks interesting and worth a test/comparison. Unfortunately, there's no indication that they make it for the States. It's the kind of item (weight) that would be expensive to ship.

 

[Phillyb]

Many say all the above which unit does what and what that unit does not do right. I know a good few philes who enjoy their systems more than ever after getting rid of all power conditioning, all had the same story, the Soul and emotional involvement came back and that a good power cord did more than their conditioners did and this was across different types of conditioners sold in the USA. I just saw a video on Jay's Audio Youtube site and he tried many of the very top expensive ones, said all they did good, but in the end like the sound of his system direct from the wall, the same story music had an emotional connection again. Think I'll give this a go this weekend. Just received my new AQ Firebird and Dragon power cords.

 

[highstream]

10-12 or more wall outlets? The question is what about the power has led to more enjoyment for them and what the trade offs are. Plus, there’s a time of day issue involved in wall power. Using the P15, I can get more (or less) emotional enjoyment by changing tubes, a fuse or power cords, with other benefits being constant.