It Was Inevitable…

[Ron Resnick]

Dear Ron,
I do not find your use of the phrase "the incomparability of interpersonal utility" as explanatory. Yes it is an accepted phrase for some and easily bandied about by those who know it. I don't know if the theory behind the incomparability of interpersonal utility is at the Econ 101 level. For me personally I don't think I could deduce its meaning from its words alone, and thus gauge the utility of the phrase on its own to the uninitiated as marginal at best. I think if you had actually explained what is meant rather than using what is by and large an academic phrase, your case would be stronger and it would be more palatable if you had not claimed that others lacked awareness of it. Teach in a soft way.

My understanding of the somewhat beclouded (intentionally obscure guild speak?) phrase "the incomparability of interpersonal utility" is that it is a handle for the theory that: one person's values cannot be quantitatively compared to or mapped onto another person's values. Iow, my values are not his values - "too much money" is relative. There is no objective equity of value - teehee.

That such a theory exists does not preclude the tendency to have personal opinions, themselves based on personal values. Personal opinion may not respect theory and vice versa, but one cannot be used to deny the existence of the other. Perhaps we go up a level to the "the incomparability of interpersonal utility with interpersonal opinion". Or is that redundant?

All fair enough, Tim. Thank you.

I agree that the the "incomparability of interpersonal utility" is not susceptible of plain meaning, but, as you state correctly, it is a standard academic expression in economics.

 

[Ron Resnick]

An explanation which cannot convey understanding has limited value.

This is true -- if the explanation cannot convey understanding. If I read a term or technical phrase I do not understand, but in which I am interested, I research its meaning. I do not get annoyed or offended that someone knew and wrote some bit of information I did not yet possess.

The fact that I may not understand an explanation does not necessarily mean the explanation cannot convey understanding. If the reader chooses to ascertain the definition of an unfamiliar term or phrase then the explanation may be found to convey understanding.

 

[DaveC]

Into some very expensive products there goes very impressive and expensive engineering, such as Wilson Chronosonic or Magico M9 speakers, to name just two examples from the loudspeaker world. Or CH Precision amplifiers, or even, on a somewhat less expensive level, the R&D that went into my Octave amplification. And so on.

Of course, you can argue with the results or about sonic tastes, but the fact is that independent of these considerations there are some really impressive and time consuming, serious engineering and manufacturing efforts involved in a number of high end products. So I can see, to a certain extent, a justification for high prices in that regard.

Yet for me it's hard to see how the same is the case with cables, beyond a certain point at which a very high price becomes a head scratching affair. Goldplating certainly is not what I would call an impressive engineering effort. Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

Honestly, amp and speaker design is pretty straightforward. In some ways cables are more difficult as far as terminations and packaging. I find it takes far more skill as a craftsman to make cables, similar to the skill required of someone who does high end metal or woodworking, which I also have done professionally in the past. In contrast putting together my amps and speakers is much easier even though the whole is more complicated. Cables must be terminated into extremely inconvenient connectors, must be able to be bent repeatedly, must not corrode, etc. Also the design parameters and factors are much less well understood. With amps and speakers the design factors are much better understood and these days you can buy simulation and measurement equipment for very low prices. Building a basic SET Amp for example is actually easier than building a cable that's competitive with good commercial offerings. In both cases building an excellent piece of gear isn't easy but again imo it's easier for the Amp because design factors are well known and you can simply copy an excellent design and invest in high quality parts. Cables will likely take you far more trial and error.

As far as ridiculous costs there are tons of equally ridiculously priced components and speakers. Some folks who use the world's most outrageously expensive gear seem to be the most critical of cables simply to suit a sales narrative. The hypocrisy in this thread is at a level I've never seen before. It's accepted by some simply because folks don't understand cables and don't understand the current world market.

 

[wil]

I don't doubt anything you say above, but I do think some high-end cable purveyors are selling luxury priced jewelry more than an engineered product. This is further evidenced by the fact that some of the high end cables have a significantly higher profit margin than other components. I do not consider Zen Wave or Sablon, for instance, to be part of this luxury cable party.

 

[DaveC]

I don't doubt anything you say above, but I do think some high-end cable purveyors are selling luxury priced jewelry more than an engineered product. This is further evidenced by the fact that some of the high end cables have a significantly higher profit margin than other components. I do not consider Zen Wave or Sablon, for instance, to be part of this luxury cable party.

This is true of all audio products and especially more expensive ones.

Some audio companies also try to appeal to those who want to eschew luxury but still charge a fortune like Belden Iconoclast and certain others I'd rather not name because some here will get offended.

But where do you draw the line? Very few folks want components in plain black steel boxes.... Are $250k+ Boulder 3000 series monoblocks luxury or great engineering? I can tell you they put extraordinary effort into both aspects of their products.

 

[jeff1225]

Honestly, amp and speaker design is pretty straightforward. In some ways cables are more difficult as far as terminations and packaging. I find it takes far more skill as a craftsman to make cables, similar to the skill required of someone who does high end metal or woodworking, which I also have done professionally in the past. In contrast putting together my amps and speakers is much easier even though the whole is more complicated. Cables must be terminated into extremely inconvenient connectors, must be able to be bent repeatedly, must not corrode, etc. Also the design parameters and factors are much less well understood. With amps and speakers the design factors are much better understood and these days you can buy simulation and measurement equipment for very low prices. Building a basic SET Amp for example is actually easier than building a cable that's competitive with good commercial offerings. In both cases building an excellent piece of gear isn't easy but again imo it's easier for the Amp because design factors are well known and you can simply copy an excellent design and invest in high quality parts. Cables will likely take you far more trial and error.

As far as ridiculous costs there are tons of equally ridiculously priced components and speakers. Some folks who use the world's most outrageously expensive gear seem to be the most critical of cables simply to suit a sales narrative. The hypocrisy in this thread is at a level I've never seen before. It's accepted by some simply because folks don't understand cables and don't understand the current world market.

Cables more difficult to design that amplifiers? Surely you must be joking.

 

[cjf]

This is true of all audio products and especially more expensive ones.

Some audio companies also try to appeal to those who want to eschew luxury but still charge a fortune like Belden Iconoclast and certain others I'd rather not name because some here will get offended.

But where do you draw the line? Very few folks want components in plain black steel boxes.... Are $250k+ Boulder 3000 series monoblocks luxury or great engineering? I can tell you they put extraordinary effort into both aspects of their products.

Going off looks and pictures found around the web of the Boulder 3xxx series amps one would likely be inclined to think they fit both criteria (luxury and impressive engineering) but I wonder what kind of torture and compatibility tests have they been put thru up to this point? Same question applies to the Gold cables being discussed. Not sure who would know that answer but I'll threw it out there anyway.

In my opinion until a piece of gear, cable...etc is put through its paces being connected to all sorts of gear from like and mixed brands ranging in price from low dollar to high dollar I would consider that component more luxury than anything else. All it takes is one misbehaving component added to the mix to cause all sorts of heartburn. Will these amps and cables simply shrug it off and solider on or will they fold up like a cheap suit? Who knows?

A badge of great engineering cant be awarded so soon when the only components likely to ever be connected to said components are just as boutique, specialized and rare as it is. This goes for anything audio related not just the Gold cables in this thread or the fancy Boulder 3xxx series amps previously mentioned.

Glossy Ads and high prices will only sway a small majority to pull the trigger. Transparent, detailed information on why the product is so great and so expensive will bring about far more sales than BS alone.

 

[DaveC]

Cables more difficult to design that amplifiers? Surely you must be joking.

"In some ways" ...If you read onto the next sentence I actually elaborate on that.

BTW, I'd put my amps up against any commercial offering regardless of price.

 

[DaveC]

Glossy Ads and high prices will only sway a small majority to pull the trigger. Transparent, detailed information on why the product is so great and so expensive will bring about far more sales than BS alone.

I'm not sure you can separate the two... Luxury is something you buy into, it has a story associated with it that hooks the buyer. Every single piece of high end audio gear has a fancy brochure promoting the brand and it's story just as much as the product, and the info on why the product is so great is part of the story. Anyone who buys in will believe the info offered is appropriate, whether you might call it transparent and detailed or not.

In this way luxury is by it's nature a niche experience, companies operating in a luxury market are not out for mass appeal, the business model is to appeal to a relatively narrow slice of the potential market. This also offers the buyer exclusivity.

A good example of this is designer fashion vs say, The Gap. Designers who make seasonal collections with exclusive, never-to-be-made-again pieces of clothing that a vast majority of people may consider weird or ugly are obviously not going for broad appeal. The Gap is going for a much wider slice of the pie.

So for you and many like you, you are correct... but there are a multitude of different markets and I am sure you're not correct about glossy brochures and high prices attracting buyers in many other cultures, in fact I'd go so far as to say in some places if you don't have glossy brochures and high prices you are handicapping yourself and dooming yourself to failure.

Some companies appeal to your "transparent, detailed info" niche by trying to offer that... I do, I am upfront and honest about what I use in my cables and I don't use look-alike or fake parts. But within that niche is the niche that also wants to get the best value for the money on a top-of-the-line product. I offer that. Others who want a top of the line product may prefer to buy from a dealer-sold brand like Nordost that offers an in-person buying experience, glossy brochures with a ton of expense paid to industrial design, packaging, advertising and reviews and dealer support. Then there are other niches in between the two, for folks who think my cables are too cheap and Nordost is too expensive, they want to spend somewhere in-between. Lots of choices for them too.

This is why I find the condemnation of Nordost for their high pricing naïve and misguided. Nordost HAS to do this to be taken seriously as the big cheese of the cable world. Boulder Amplfier HAD to make a set of monoblocks that cost as much as the average home. AER HAD to charge $40k+ for their new uber-drivers. It's who they are in the market, if they didn't do that they wouldn't be seen as the Mercedes S-Class of audio by people who they'd like to sell their products to.

 

[morricab]

"In some ways" ...If you read onto the next sentence I actually elaborate on that.

BTW, I'd put my amps up against any commercial offering regardless of price.

Which ways would those be? It is a nice little hedge you have added but without specifics...well you can kind of understand the doubters...

Not knowing your amp it is hard to say if you would be competitive or not. Maybe...maybe not...

 

[morricab]

"In some ways" ...If you read onto the next sentence I actually elaborate on that.

BTW, I'd put my amps up against any commercial offering regardless of price.

It’s single ended EL34 wired in triode right? I have heard one of those be competitive with other good SETs...just sayin...

 

[DaveC]

Which ways would those be? It is a nice little hedge you have added but without specifics...well you can kind of understand the doubters...

If you read onto the next sentence I actually elaborate on that. (post #123)

It’s single ended EL34 wired in triode right? I have heard one of those be competitive with other good SETs...just sayin...

Yes. It has voltage gain in another chassis with it's own power supply, uses no electrolytic caps, etc. etc. I've probably redesigned and rebuilt it a half dozen times over the years.

 

[marty]

Yes, I have spent a lot on components. My ears or prior experience tell me that each of the expensive components I have bought sounds better to me than competing less expensive components. I like to think that each decision has been at least somewhat rationally and within the realm of my personal cost/benefit analysis. Each decision has been based on comparative auditions or prior ownership or educated triangulation.

For example, I paid up for the three box Io Eclipse because I loved the two box basic model Io for about 18 years. The amps are an upgraded and much more stable descendant of the amps I had for about 16 years.

The line stage is new, but designed for compatibility with the amps and uniquely able to drive long interconnects. I have heard the line stage in a system I am familiar with.

The turntable is new but designed under excellent provenance and universally revered among our members who have it.

Cables, however, are an unknown to me. I do not think the Mogami or Belden cables are as good as the expensive stuff. I also do not think the expensive cables are as good as the Mogami or Belden cables. I truly do not know. I have no basis for an opinion. I simply do not know that the expensive stuff is better. I am not going to assume that the expensive stuff is better. I am not a Veblen good adherent.

Therefore, it seems logical to me to start with the inexpensive stuff first (as opposed to selecting relatively arbitrarily one of the expensive brands first).

If I discover the expensive stuff sounds better to me, then I happily will pay up for improved sound quality I can perceive.

Based on some discussions I’ve had with Ron, I’d like to add a few things Ron omitted in his rationale for selecting Mogami cables at the outset. It seems to me that one thing most of us have learned when setting up a new room with the system of one’s dreams, is that it often takes quite a while to get things to sound their best. Six months or longer is not unusual. We also know that cables are a critical component of any system and their selection is often dependent on the electronics (and to some extent) the speakers being used. In Ron’s case, he requires a 50 foot run between his front end and his amplifiers. Choosing a cable in this setting without any good data to support the selection can easily wind up being unproductive or worse- an expensive mistake. In Ron’s case, it makes a lot of sense to try and optimize the room while using an inexpensive option for his 50 ft cable runs, while experimenting with several available “unobtainium” cables between the front end gear to learn what night be the best fit for the long runs when the room is far more optimized and tweaked. Are Mogami’s a good choice for this situation? Well, consider that for the majority of classical recording we listen to, it is often the cable of choice for those 50 foot and longer runs from the microphones to the recording console and has been for decades. Now put yourself in Ron’s place. Would you rather spend a hundred bucks for a 50 foot run on Mogami while you are optimizing everything else over the next several months, or make an a priori decision and buy a 50 foot run of unobtanium cables for tens of thousands of dollars now that he has never heard? His decision to go with Mogami initially is by far the wiser choice and likely a far less costly path than any other for long term satisfaction. Seems like a darn good SWAN (sleep well at night) decision for now!

 

[morricab]

If you read onto the next sentence I actually elaborate on that. (post #123)



Yes. It has voltage gain in another chassis with it's own power supply, uses no electrolytic caps, etc. etc. I've probably redesigned and rebuilt it a half dozen times over the years.

Interestingly, Coda made an amp with a separate voltage gain box from the current output. There as another company that did this with a tube voltage gain in one box and a SS output stage? A good idea although the umbilical between the two then becomes an issue...

 

[jeff1225]

"In some ways" ...If you read onto the next sentence I actually elaborate on that.

BTW, I'd put my amps up against any commercial offering regardless of price.

I did read it carefully. You conflate "design" with "build." It might be difficult to terminate cables into connectors, but designing unique circuits (not copying existing existing designs) is much more difficult than designing cables. Cables are just wires. Amplifiers have transformers, circuits, tubes, or transistors....and cables.

 

[Carlos269]

Interestingly, Coda made an amp with a separate voltage gain box from the current output. There as another company that did this with a tube voltage gain in one box and a SS output stage? A good idea although the umbilical between the two then becomes an issue...

The Llano Trinity Amplifier.

 

[DaveC]

I did read it carefully. You conflate "design" with "build." It might be difficult to terminate cables into connectors, but designing unique circuits (not copying existing existing designs) is much more difficult than designing cables. Cables are just wires. Amplifiers have transformers, circuits, tubes, or transistors....and cables.

I didn't conflate anything.

And thanks for your pedantic, condescending reply. It's pretty obvious you haven't a clue.

"Cables are just wires" jeffrey_t, 2021.

"Amplifiers have transformers, circuits, tubes, or transistors...." jeffrey_t, 2021.

 

[DaveC]

Interestingly, Coda made an amp with a separate voltage gain box from the current output. There as another company that did this with a tube voltage gain in one box and a SS output stage? A good idea although the umbilical between the two then becomes an issue...

You only need an umbilical if there's a separate power supply. I don't like separate power supplies for exactly this reason. There are advantages for sure, but they are reduced because of the need for the umbilical.

I believe you can isolate the PS well enough in one chassis and avoid umbilicals. The connection between my voltage and current amps is just standard RCA cables.

The main reason I have 2 chassis is the voltage amp used to be a preamp and there isn't room for everything in one chassis!

 

[jeff1225]

I didn't conflate anything.

And thanks for your pedantic, condescending reply. It's pretty obvious you haven't a clue.

"Cables are just wires" jeffrey_t, 2021.

"Amplifiers have transformers, circuits, tubes, or transistors...." jeffrey_t, 2021.

You really need to grow a set Dave. I you can't defend the ridiculous statements that you yourself have made, then you really should partisipate in this forum. If I asked 5 audiophiles for their favorite amp designers, most could name 5 in a heart beat. Could the same be said for cable designers? You know the answer (creepy wink emoji you use so often.)

Luckily this forum has a ignore function, I will be pressing that button shortly.

 

[DaveC]

You really need to grow a set Dave. I you can't defend the ridiculous statements that you yourself have made, then you really should partisipate in this forum. If I asked 5 audiophiles for their favorite amp designers, most could name 5 in a heart beat. Could the same be said for cable designers? You know the answer (creepy wink emoji you use so often.)

Luckily this forum has a ignore function, I will be pressing that button shortly.

That would be GREAT. Please don't reply to me ever again.

Why would I possibly engage with people like you anyways? You have absolutely NO EXPERIENCE at all, you buy all of your gear, you've never designed or built anything and you certainly don't put yourself out there as far as selling anything.

OTOH, I invite people over to listen to a system I've designed and built myself, I send my cables to people to try out for themselves. So your condescension towards me is like a little child admonishing their parents about how to live life. You're like a teenager who thinks they know it all. You disgrace yourself with your horrible attitude and how you disrespect myself and others.