Jimmy Page on EQ

[Legolas]

Yeah I was expecting the reverse, thought rock would be fine on CD, but the vinyl quality difference is really huge.

I know what you mean. I noticed as much on Zepplin. I fact to my ears Zepp 1 on Redbook sounds better than the later albums especially Presence and later. It comes down to poor (at that time) knowledge of digital mastering IMO.

Don't forget, we also had poor vinyl pressings around the early 90's. I think the MQA versions on Tidal are better, but still way behind vinyl.

 

[853guy]

Guys,

OK, three others were named. I don't like Smashing Pumpkins, but I do have one of Chamberlain's solo albums, and Jon Teodore is indeed a unique drummer. So we're up to what, 4 now? In jazz, yeah, Brian Blade has a sound, and Johnathan Blake too. But again, those are few and far between. Back then, jazz drummers had a much more pronounced, unique playing styles, even among the more electrified jazz/fusion style... Or wouldn't you know how to distinguish between a Cobham or a Mouzon?
My point is that, like guitarrists, I think drummers gave up trying to have a distinct signature, in playing and recording styles. Back then, you KNEW it was Bonham, same as you KNEW it was Iommi on guitar.
And that has NOTHING to do with appealing to audiophile sensibilites. Regular rock fans appreciate a distinct sound signature in their favorite musicians, and that's why a lot of the greats of 60s/70s are...erm... greats! Not only they record music people appreciated, they did it with a style of their own.
Now, it's hard to find a musician that actually cares how their instrument sound, or even putting their own unique signature on the recording. Most are happy to just have something out there.

Four’s not enough?

Again, I don’t think it’s useful comparing across genres nor time periods. You can’t ignore history. No drummer is going to wake up tomorrow and forget Elvin, Tony, Bonzo, Vinnie or Neil existed. Prior art redefines the way we reinterpret the present. There’s still a massive amount of individuality existing in contemporary rock/jazz/alt/metal - but there’s already a bunch of stuff that’s been done before, and you have to acknowledge it and try and find some sort of voice that builds on it. You gotta remember when Elvin and Tony and Bonzo and Vinnie and Neil were doing it - they were pretty much the first. It’s much easier to be remembered for having a distinct sound if you were the first guy doing it. Jason Bonham? I mean, no one cares, right?

Like I say, too much has changed musically, culturally and in terms of how the industry functions (or not). Nevertheless, here’s a list of contemporary guys who’re making music that - to my ears, at least - have an identifiable style/sound. It’s not quite the fifty I promised, but, y’know, my fingers got tired.

Love and hug always and forever,

853guy

Brian Blade
Marc Guiliana
Keith Carlock
Tomas Haake
Ronald Bruner Jr.
Chris Coleman
Tony Austin
John Stanier
Matt Chamberlain
Chris Adler
Benny Greb
Matt Halpern
Robert “Sput” Searlight
Brann Dailor
Dave Lombardo
Danny Carey
Abe Cunningham
Chris “Daddy” Dave
Josh Freese
George Kollias
Jean-Paul Gaster
Stanton Moore
Questlove
Ilan Rubin
Chad Smith
Abe Laboriel Jr.
Deantoni Parks
Brad Wilk
Brian Chase
Dave Grohl
Glenn Kotche
Dave King
Dave Turncrantz
Damon Che
Jerry Fuchs
Sebastian Thomson
John McEntire
Britt Walford
Travis Foster
Nasheet Waits
Jim White
Jay Bellerose
James Gadson

 

[spiritofmusic]

Drummers were a massive casualty of the loudness wars
I always found it ironic that the period over which drummers lost their identity and character ie the early 90s to late 00s, was the period of ever increasing complexity in drum gear and hardware, ie piccolo snare drums, internal drum miking, rack/floating hardware
More and more expensive drums and gear w worse and worse sounding recordings
As a practicing drummer myself, I've swapped my Tama top of the line for 60s originals Gretsch Roundbadges

 

[asiufy]

You have a point there, in that it's hard to innovate once seemingly all there was to create is already out there. But it's still possible to contribute fresh takes on old sounds, and that's where I personally derive most enjoyment out of new artists. See Kamasi Washington's "The Epic", an incredible blend/mishmash of 70s jazz styles. Not unique in any way, but still highly memorable!

Out of your list, I know some, agree with some, and don't agree with others. What has Dave Grohl contributed, as a drummer? I don't see him particularly unique in style... And neither is Questlove...

I don't want to give the impression that I'm one of those old fogeys who doesn't listen to anything post-1976. I listen to a lot of recent artists/recordings, but I seem to find most pleasure out of those artists/recordings that tap directly into that 60s/70s ethos and come up with some fresh, while still very much recognizably "old".

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oh, this musn't become a "new music is crap, old music is king" rant!
There's plenty of new stuff I love, w drumming that is similarly stellar
Just love London Grammar, Foo Fighters, Mars Volta, Snarky Puppy etc
And finally, blessedly, the loudness wars are over
But other than the likes of Gavin Harrison, Tim Herb Alexander, Taylor Hawkins, Ian Moseley and Dennis Chambers, I'm not feeling engrossed by many drummers' long term careers as much as all my initial idols
I'm just shocked how few drummers today have identifiable signatures, so many have homogenous techniques, and many have uninteresting sounds
I can only think it's a couple of decades of young people who become today's young drummers growing up with the ravages of the loudness wars, brick walking, lossy compression, earbuds, the demeaning of modern music as something to truly be absorbed by and in effect consumed on the go like fast food, record producers and engineered obsessed by Pro Tools/digital patching, and no one in the industry beyond a small hardcore even giving a damn
Oh dear, i HAVE gone on to slate modern music making LOL!

 

[morricab]

Four’s not enough?

Again, I don’t think it’s useful comparing across genres nor time periods. You can’t ignore history. No drummer is going to wake up tomorrow and forget Elvin, Tony, Bonzo, Vinnie or Neil existed. Prior art redefines the way we reinterpret the present. There’s still a massive amount of individuality existing in contemporary rock/jazz/alt/metal - but there’s already a bunch of stuff that’s been done before, and you have to acknowledge it and try and find some sort of voice that builds on it. You gotta remember when Elvin and Tony and Bonzo and Vinnie and Neil were doing it - they were pretty much the first. It’s much easier to be remembered for having a distinct sound if you were the first guy doing it. Jason Bonham? I mean, no one cares, right?

Like I say, too much has changed musically, culturally and in terms of how the industry functions (or not). Nevertheless, here’s a list of contemporary guys who’re making music that - to my ears, at least - have an identifiable style/sound. It’s not quite the fifty I promised, but, y’know, my fingers got tired.

Love and hug always and forever,

853guy

Brian Blade
Marc Guiliana
Keith Carlock
Tomas Haake
Ronald Bruner Jr.
Chris Coleman
Tony Austin
John Stanier
Matt Chamberlain
Chris Adler
Benny Greb
Matt Halpern
Robert “Sput” Searlight
Brann Dailor
Dave Lombardo
Danny Carey
Abe Cunningham
Chris “Daddy” Dave
Josh Freese
George Kollias
Jean-Paul Gaster
Stanton Moore
Questlove
Ilan Rubin
Chad Smith
Abe Laboriel Jr.
Deantoni Parks
Brad Wilk
Brian Chase
Dave Grohl
Glenn Kotche
Dave King
Dave Turncrantz
Damon Che
Jerry Fuchs
Sebastian Thomson
John McEntire
Britt Walford
Travis Foster
Nasheet Waits
Jim White
Jay Bellerose
James Gadson

No Bill Bruford? Dave Weckl? Jack De Johnette? Manu Katchè? Steve Gadd? Nicko McBrain?

 

[853guy]

No Bill Bruford? Dave Weckl? Jack De Johnette? Manu Katchè? Steve Gadd? Nicko McBrain?

Hi Morricab,

They’re all great (Weckl notwithstanding - never had any love for him), but their average age is 65, and Bruford is retired. I was attempting to put forward a case that there’s a younger(ish) generation of guys still making music and with a voice that has some distinct characteristics that aren’t just derivative of the previous generation(s). How likely it is that list will find sympathetic agreement will depend on many factors, not limited to music preference, willingness to expose ourselves to new music, appreciation of skill/technique relative to musicality, and when we were born.

Be well.

853guy

 

[853guy]

You have a point there, in that it's hard to innovate once seemingly all there was to create is already out there. But it's still possible to contribute fresh takes on old sounds, and that's where I personally derive most enjoyment out of new artists. See Kamasi Washington's "The Epic", an incredible blend/mishmash of 70s jazz styles. Not unique in any way, but still highly memorable!

Ronald Bruner Jr. and Tony Austin both recorded and have been touring The Epic. They’re on my list. Bruner's solos make me weep with joy.

Out of your list, I know some, agree with some, and don't agree with others. What has Dave Grohl contributed, as a drummer? I don't see him particularly unique in style... And neither is Questlove...

Again, it’s all subjective, right? I think Grohl has a real talent for creating super hooky drum parts that sit really well behind the melody but drive the song forward with consistent momentum, and with sensibilities that are equal parts pop and metal. Questlove mixes the kind of offbeat swagger of Parliament Funkadelic and James Brown with the percussiveness of sampled hip-hop and tinged with Max Roach era jazz. You don’t hear that? Don’t appreciate it? That’s totally cool. It’s just my take on things.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm one of those old fogeys who doesn't listen to anything post-1976. I listen to a lot of recent artists/recordings, but I seem to find most pleasure out of those artists/recordings that tap directly into that 60s/70s ethos and come up with some fresh, while still very much recognizably "old".

I was the only kid in high school listening to Bad Brains, Peter Gabriel, Branford Marsalis and Verdi. It’d be Pet Shop Boys and Helmet one day, and Steve Reich and Corrosion of Conformity the next. For me, music was just… music. I didn’t really care where it came from, I was just really hungry to hear new stuff. And in a lot of ways, I’m still really the same. Lately it’s been a lot of microtonal, minimalist electronica/field recordings (as my posts in What’s Spinning Tonight can attest to). Tomorrow might just be Frankie Goes to Hollywood remixes, or listening to the artistry of Cortot and Volodos. Sheesh, Bieber's "Let Me Love You" with DJ Snake is actually awfully good, and I've even caught myself singing it in the car. I mean, yes, of course, there’s a lot of stuff I hate and won’t listen to - I just prefer to spend my time and energy on talking and sharing about stuff I like. But that’s just me.

Anyway, as always, my continued wishes are for your good health and prosperity.

Be well, Asiufy.

853guy

 

[rockitman]

Interesting....So why do all the Zepplin cd's sound bad?

compression and normalization.

 

[Kingsrule]

compression and normalization.

This I know
The thought is if Page is such a audio fanatic, why the crappy cd's?

 

[bonzo75]

This I know
The thought is if Page is such a audio fanatic, why the crappy cd's?

Because he wants people to buy vinyl ?

 

[Ron Party]

Wait a sec. Discussion about drummers and no mention of Ginger Baker? And for more contemporary ones, Mike Portnoy; seen him live a few times and his chops are up there with the best, no doubt.

 

[NorthStar]

This I know
The thought is if Page is such a audio fanatic, why the crappy cd's?

The poor business aspect of it; bad sound with portability (CD).
Who needs quality sound when you're on the go...flying, dancing, jogging, on the bus, in the car, on the train, walking in the forest, in the city, driving in the rain, with headphones?

For serious listening @ home sitting in the sweet spot, vinyl is the intimate way to interact much more involved emotionally with the musicians and their music.
Because music matters.

That's one of the reasons. I'm talking Led Zeppelin music here, and Jimmy Page's take on EQ.
This is not my general opinion, just on this very specific topic. Led Zeppelin music on quality CD seems to be from Japan.

 

[NorthStar]

 

[NorthStar]

 

[853guy]

You have a point there, in that it's hard to innovate once seemingly all there was to create is already out there. But it's still possible to contribute fresh takes on old sounds, and that's where I personally derive most enjoyment out of new artists....

Hey asiufy,

Well, there is this guy:

Just... just... I'm speechless.

Be well,

853guy

 

[asiufy]

Well, that was pretty cool!
But I can't help but feel it's gimmicky... He's talented, no doubt, but the "distinctive" thing about him seems like a gimmick to me (the drums/bass synth thing)


cheers,
alex

 

[853guy]

Well, that was pretty cool!
But I can't help but feel it's gimmicky... He's talented, no doubt, but the "distinctive" thing about him seems like a gimmick to me (the drums/bass synth thing)

cheers,
alex

Man, you are one tough nut to crack. I must try harder.

Be well, asiufy...

853guy

P.S. If history is to be believed, there was a time when people thought two bass drums were "gimmicky", or the Moog was, or the Taurus pedal was, or sampling was, or turntablism was, or beat-boxing was. Heck, apparently, overdriving the output tubes on a guitar amp was even pretty unfavourable at one stage, and we know how that turned out.

 

[asiufy]

Hahahaha
But when the Moog came out and people like Emerson started using it, they were also innovating in the actual compositions that employed the Moogs, for instance. Same with the two bass drums, for the early metal. Or Kraftwerk with the early synthetic percussion devices. Sure, all these guys exploited those "unique" instruments (at the time) in very gimmicky forms, specially in their stage presences, but doesn't change the fact that their MUSIC was innovative at its core, and the instruments were part of that innovation.
Now, I like this fellow's music and all (heard a few other songs on Youtube while I was at it), but his music is anything but innovative. The innovation lies in him playing everything by himself AND singing.

 

[853guy]

Hahahaha
But when the Moog came out and people like Emerson started using it, they were also innovating in the actual compositions that employed the Moogs, for instance. Same with the two bass drums, for the early metal. Or Kraftwerk with the early synthetic percussion devices. Sure, all these guys exploited those "unique" instruments (at the time) in very gimmicky forms, specially in their stage presences, but doesn't change the fact that their MUSIC was innovative at its core, and the instruments were part of that innovation.
Now, I like this fellow's music and all (heard a few other songs on Youtube while I was at it), but his music is anything but innovative. The innovation lies in him playing everything by himself AND singing.

It's possible we've already had this conversation previously. It kinda goes like this...

Me: Innovation is usually awarded to whoever did it first.
You: I know, which is what makes those classic bands and artists so good.
Me: Well, we say they're good now, but plenty of people rejected them outright when they first tried it saying they were terrible.
You: But those classic bands and artists have stood the test of time. Newer bands and artists aren't really innovating in the same way.
Me: I know, because all you can do is acknowledge what's gone before and find you own slant on it.
You: But even when the find their own slant on things it comes across as "gimmicky".
Me: But that's what they said about Jimi and Coltrane and Messiaen and Prince and Zeppelin and Xenakis.
You: I know, but those classic bands and artists were so good....

Look. I'm not saying he's the next Prince. I'm saying, hey, here's a guy with great rhythmic chops and groove who's not doing what everyone else is doing, and in a way no one else has really done before. And while the songs themselves are pretty much rooted in Americana and blues/rock tinged soul, for me, there's still enough going on musically to take interest.

But as ever, taste being what it is, I respect the fact that we may have much in common, yet diverge in many important and significant ways. Though it's very difficult to disagree with a man who makes his living selling Koetsu, MSB and YG.

My continued best to you and yours,

853guy