I agree regarding the Japanese SHM CD's, they are mastered with greater care. If you live in the USA and have only listened to the USA pressed vinyl or CD's you really don't know what Zepplin can sound like. Original UK and German pressings or Classic Records. The latest repressings which were done in Germany at Pallas are pretty good too.
Jimmy Page on EQ
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I agree regarding the Japanese SHM CD's, they are mastered with greater care. If you live in the USA and have only listened to the USA pressed vinyl or CD's you really don't know what Zepplin can sound like. Original UK and German pressings or Classic Records. The latest repressings which were done in Germany at Pallas are pretty good too.
David Briggs?
Is anyone here familiar with David Briggs, the record producer?
He had some interesting things to say about studio work; interested?
zz.
Is anyone here familiar with David Briggs, the record producer?
He had some interesting things to say about studio work; interested?
zz.
Why is it that in North America the quality of the music recordings is often inferior than in Japan, Germany, Europe...in general?
Everything music related made in USA or/and Canada is inferior to those other countries. ...Music recordings, and also audio cables and audio gear.
There is more refinement from those other countries like Switzerland, Sweden, Germany, Japan, Italy, France, ...
Is it fair to say?
No, I am not familar.
Yes, I am interested, s'il vous plaît; any link you find good for you is good for me.
"Can you patch from here to here an eliminate the ENTIRE board?"
"Can you patch from here to here and eliminate the ENTIRE board?"
This is from a book he was involved in [do not remember the name of the book]; this is the David Briggs quote:
"I can teach you everything I know in an hour. Everything. That's how simple it is to make records. Nowadays, buddy, the technician is in control of the medium. They try to make out like it is black magic, or flyin' a spaceship. I can teach anybody on this planet how to fly the spaceship. If you look at the modern console, there'll be thirty knobs, high frequency, low frequency, mid-frequency, all notched in little tiny, tiny, teeny degrees - and it's all bullshit. All this stuff doesn't matter, and you can't be intimidated. You just ignore it - all of it. I walk into studios with the biggest console known to mankind, and I ask for the schematic and say, "Can you patch from here to here and eliminate the ENTIRE board?" I just run it right into the tape machines.
zz.
"Can you patch from here to here and eliminate the ENTIRE board?"
This is from a book he was involved in [do not remember the name of the book]; this is the David Briggs quote:
"I can teach you everything I know in an hour. Everything. That's how simple it is to make records. Nowadays, buddy, the technician is in control of the medium. They try to make out like it is black magic, or flyin' a spaceship. I can teach anybody on this planet how to fly the spaceship. If you look at the modern console, there'll be thirty knobs, high frequency, low frequency, mid-frequency, all notched in little tiny, tiny, teeny degrees - and it's all bullshit. All this stuff doesn't matter, and you can't be intimidated. You just ignore it - all of it. I walk into studios with the biggest console known to mankind, and I ask for the schematic and say, "Can you patch from here to here and eliminate the ENTIRE board?" I just run it right into the tape machines.
zz.
Bruce B said:
Hi Bruce,
Yeah, I never liked bottom-miking the snare. Sometimes I would, but 99% of the time never used it in the mix. I much preferred miking the shell halfway between the top and bottom heads, but again often times wasn’t used. As with most things production-related, it was always on a case-by-case basis. For some reason I actually never really liked the 57 on a snare. Fine for live, but in the studio much preferred the Beyer 201/Revox M3500.
Room miking on the other hand was often the difference between generic close-miked homogenisation and something really special. Again, all the caveats of room, kit, tuning, placement, musician apply.
NorthStar said:
Hey NorthStar,
No, I’m not sure it is. The simple fact is that the US underwent a massive cultural transformation in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s that very few other nations experienced to the same degree, and the level of creative musical output was phenomenal. Since then, the US has lead the way in terms of popular music output and diversified into new genres and sub-genres that inevitably means the hit-to-miss ratio exponentially decreases. Proportionally speaking, you get more “bad” music, but only because there’s so much more output. For every great artist that emerges from the States there’s (literally) thousands of other lesser artists making derivations of the same thing following in their footsteps hoping to cash in on the success of the genre, either through their own delusion or the machinations of the label. It’s just way more commodified now.
In terms of popular music, Europe and Asia have nowhere near the same level of creative output, which is why European radio plays 50% of English-speaking music. If you hear a great artist from those countries, it’s mostly because they have appeal to an English speaking audience. In terms of how popular music is perceived worldwide, America, and to a lesser-degree, the UK, still lead the way. That’s not to say European and Asian talent can’t eek out successful careers at home, but they’ll always be playing for a limited audience. The idea of “breaking into America” is still no less true than it was in the Beatles’ day.
I've always been fascinated by the great sound of drummers in the past, and dismayed by the vast majority of drum recordings post-'90's
Can anyone tell me what was done (or not done, if you get me) to make Elvin Jones w John Coltrane, Tony Williams w Miles Davis, Bill Bruford w Yes etc etc just sound so "right", w reverb, attack, power and space, the true character of the player and kit coming thru?
Just how could a stellar drummer like Neil Peart impose his personality and sound w the amazing Moving Pictures in 1981 then go on to be so masked and subdued on Clockwork Angels in 2013?
Can anyone tell me what was done (or not done, if you get me) to make Elvin Jones w John Coltrane, Tony Williams w Miles Davis, Bill Bruford w Yes etc etc just sound so "right", w reverb, attack, power and space, the true character of the player and kit coming thru?
Just how could a stellar drummer like Neil Peart impose his personality and sound w the amazing Moving Pictures in 1981 then go on to be so masked and subdued on Clockwork Angels in 2013?
I am not doubting the importance of mic position. For sure it matters a lot...perhaps the most. However, the sound can be thoroughly ruined, regardless of the quality of the mics or position with poor supporting electronics. That was the point of the paper. For sure some things regarding transistors have improved but not so sure about their overload margins (particularly for opamps).
http://www.dwfearn.com/tubes_vs_transistors.html
Hi Morricab,
The sound can be thoroughly ruined by anything, right? It’s taking all the variables into consideration with one another that ultimately defines the result.
Look, I love D. W. Fearn’s stuff. I’d happily own his mic pre’s and EQ and comp and DI. Maybe one day I will. And I’m not dismissing out of hand any of the findings in the paper.
But “thoroughly ruined”…? That’s not what the paper says. In fact, it expressly says “The basic cause of the difference in tube and transistor sound is the weighting of harmonic distortion components in the amplifier's overload region.” It’s discussing what happens when a mic pre is overdriven (i.e. overloaded) - “The listening tests clearly indicate that the overload margin varies widely between different types of amplifiers. Engineering studios show that any amplifier adds distortion as soon as the overload point is reached. The tests show that all amplifiers could be overloaded to a certain degree without this distortion becoming noticeable. It may be concluded that these inaudible harmonics in the early overload condition might very well be causing the difference in sound coloration between tubes and transistors.”
Which is why you choose any mic pre relative to the mic you’re using and the sound source you’re attempting to capture. It’s about selecting the tool fit for purpose. It’s why I wrote:
853guy said:
I’m sure you know this already, but the reality is many mic pres are chosen because of their harmonic distortion characteristics, not in spite of them. Thousands of contemporary records are made with mic pres driven into the red because of the type of sound they produce. Certainly, for genre’s of music in which there’s heavily elevated harmonic content disproportionate to the fundamental (i.e. hard rock, metal, electronica, et al), they’re often preferable to cleaner more linear gear.
Again, I’m no Platonic idealist. I don’t believe there’s “one way” to record anything and I appreciate variety. Like loading carts with phono pres… it all depends. And most often, “it depends” is really just another way of stating individual preference. Fearn has his and they’re different from Jonte Knif’s. I could happily live with either of their mic pre’s, despite the fact that they’d likely be used for very different applications.
Be well,
853guy
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
I like more of the clean mic pre's such as Millennia, Earthworks and the one in my Merging Horus. The colored mic pre's I've used are by Neve, Great River, JDK, Tube-Tech, A-Designs and Manley. I probably forgot half of them. It's all about how you want it to sound. Pick the one that you like best!!
I don't know either. Maybe the older guys don't care enough to get their drum sound "right" like they used to, and the new(-er) generation of drummers doesn't have that unique "touch" like the older (60s/70s) guys did.
I mean, you know it's Phil Collins a mile away, on those 70s Genesis albums. Or Bruford on the King Crimson stuff. I'm kinda struggling to come up with a modern drummer that has that "uniqueness" about them, both in playing and recording styles. Billy Martin (from Medeski, Martin and Wood) has a bit of that, as his drum sound is fairly unique, but I can't think of many others...
cheers,
alex
Your assessment of drum sound is right on. Drum sounds on early rock albums are very disappointing. Hendrix, The Who and Stones stick out as flat and unengaging. It's interesting that many call Zepplin the first heavy metal band, I believe that they were just the first rock band to get the scale of drums on tape.
Alex, don't get me started on the lack of character and sound of modern drummers
It's obviously apparent that Page really got the recording environment right for Bonham to pound away, capturing his controlled fury perfectly
I'm v much of the opinion that too much prep and tech hurts the modern drum sound too, Bruford has often commented on just getting on w whatever was to hand in the studio
It's just fascinating that so many drummers of the Golden Age of recording had their character left intact on the final product
It's obviously apparent that Page really got the recording environment right for Bonham to pound away, capturing his controlled fury perfectly
I'm v much of the opinion that too much prep and tech hurts the modern drum sound too, Bruford has often commented on just getting on w whatever was to hand in the studio
It's just fascinating that so many drummers of the Golden Age of recording had their character left intact on the final product
But... but... doesn't the Millenia use a version of the MM990 op amp and the Earthworks a version of the 5534?
Yours in the knowledge it's the artist not the brush,
853guy
Modern great drummers in terms of technique and drum sound: Smashing Pumpkins (Siamese Dream), Soundgarden (all albums), Mars Volta (first two albums), Black Crows (all albums. Just to name a few.
spiritofmusic said:
asiufy said:
spiritofmusic said:
Hi Spirit, hi Alex,
For me, it’s difficult for me to consider comparing any musician, especially across genres and especially across time. For classical musicians I think it’s easier because the repertoire is often the same. But I’d never be tempted to compare say, Peart’s work in a progressive-rock context in which he’s part of a trio consisting of heavily amplified electric guitar, bass and keyboards in the 80’s to say, Elvin’s work with Coltrane, Tyner and Garrison playing acoustic instruments in a free-jazz/hard-bop context in the 60’s.
Sensibilities change to reflect not only the change in musical syntax, grammar and language, but also the greater control the musicians had in multitrack recording and as well, the use of the studio as a secondary instrument in terms of compression, gating, EQ, reverb, delay, etc. Even drums themselves became more sophisticated and numerous making it more difficult to record as a singular instrument from the stripped-down four-piece kit that was the staple of many jazz greats. That, and Slingerland, Ludwig and Gretsch were reluctant to depart from what had always seemed adequate - why would anyone need two bass drums...? Bonzo, for instance, was essentially playing a big-band kit adapted for rock, but still tuned it much higher than contemporary drummers would now. That, and he needed the projection to compete with Page and Jones.
Things change. Music progresses. Musicians look for different ways of expressing their ideas and very rarely are those an attempt at appeasing the sensibilities of audiophiles. Personally, I can name fifty contemporary drummers playing across multiple genres who sound like themselves and have an identifiable signature. That they may not be in a genre of music you’re interested in, or record in a way that’s purist, but many levelled the same criticism at Elvin and Tony in the 70’s.
Should you need reassurance touch, tone and dynamics are alive and well in the 21st Century, I give you Mr. Brian Blade. Enjoy:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...end-of-round-1&p=441034&viewfull=1#post441034
jeffrey_t said:
See? It's easy. Jimmy Chamberlain, Matt Cameron, Jon Theodore(!!)... I could add another forty-seven at least, but perhaps it deserves another thread.
Hey Jeffrey,
I was gutted when he left. Pridgen was okay, but I missed Jon's incredible ability to name-drop Bonzo, Elvin and Cobham, yet totally sound like himself. I finally managed to accept Pridgen's inclusion in the group and went to see them in 2010. When Pridgen didn't appear on stage and some white dude with an afro sat behind the kit my expectations immediately plunged. Dave Elitch then went on to absolutely slay, as you can witness for yourself here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeYUQqDhL9E
Be well!
853guy
P.S. If you've not heard it, One Day as a Lion's EP with Jon and Zach de la Rocha was actually pretty cool.
Guys,
OK, three others were named. I don't like Smashing Pumpkins, but I do have one of Chamberlain's solo albums, and Jon Teodore is indeed a unique drummer. So we're up to what, 4 now?
In jazz, yeah, Brian Blade has a sound, and Johnathan Blake too. But again, those are few and far between. Back then, jazz drummers had a much more pronounced, unique playing styles, even among the more electrified jazz/fusion style... Or wouldn't you know how to distinguish between a Cobham or a Mouzon?
My point is that, like guitarrists, I think drummers gave up trying to have a distinct signature, in playing and recording styles. Back then, you KNEW it was Bonham, same as you KNEW it was Iommi on guitar.
And that has NOTHING to do with appealing to audiophile sensibilites. Regular rock fans appreciate a distinct sound signature in their favorite musicians, and that's why a lot of the greats of 60s/70s are...erm... greats! Not only they record music people appreciated, they did it with a style of their own.
Now, it's hard to find a musician that actually cares how their instrument sound, or even putting their own unique signature on the recording. Most are happy to just have something out there.
OK, three others were named. I don't like Smashing Pumpkins, but I do have one of Chamberlain's solo albums, and Jon Teodore is indeed a unique drummer. So we're up to what, 4 now?
In jazz, yeah, Brian Blade has a sound, and Johnathan Blake too. But again, those are few and far between. Back then, jazz drummers had a much more pronounced, unique playing styles, even among the more electrified jazz/fusion style... Or wouldn't you know how to distinguish between a Cobham or a Mouzon? My point is that, like guitarrists, I think drummers gave up trying to have a distinct signature, in playing and recording styles. Back then, you KNEW it was Bonham, same as you KNEW it was Iommi on guitar.
And that has NOTHING to do with appealing to audiophile sensibilites. Regular rock fans appreciate a distinct sound signature in their favorite musicians, and that's why a lot of the greats of 60s/70s are...erm... greats! Not only they record music people appreciated, they did it with a style of their own.
Now, it's hard to find a musician that actually cares how their instrument sound, or even putting their own unique signature on the recording. Most are happy to just have something out there.
Guys, great thread esp morphing into my fave area, discussions on drummers
I can wholeheartedly endorse Jon Theodore as you have, Tim "Herb" Alexander slayed when in Primus, and I remain a massive fan of Ian Moseley of Marillion
These guys and I'm sure many more have their heart and technique on display in their recorded output
For me, back in the day I don't think there were many drummers who allowed themselves to be shortchanged by the recording process
Now?...
I can wholeheartedly endorse Jon Theodore as you have, Tim "Herb" Alexander slayed when in Primus, and I remain a massive fan of Ian Moseley of Marillion
These guys and I'm sure many more have their heart and technique on display in their recorded output
For me, back in the day I don't think there were many drummers who allowed themselves to be shortchanged by the recording process
Now?...
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