John DeVore on the Grey Market and OCD Mikey

[adyc]

There is very little doubt that pricing of many "audiophile" products is completely disconnected from the manufacture costs. Ground boxes for $90,000, record weights for $5,000-10,000, and I could go on and on and on.
Frequently a "unique designers vision and experience" and other such BS are cited as an added value justifying the exorbitant pricing.
Not sure why is this even being debated at this point.
The question whether or not there are people willing to pay the price has nothing to do with the subject.
The issue of a value proposition is as relevant in audio as it it anywhere else.

I think the worst is cable manufacturers. Some cables prices cost as much as equipments.

 

[Robert Young]

I think the worst is cable manufacturers. Some cables prices cost as much as equipments.

LOLz

my entire system - which manages to make me very happy, either when I’m listening or when I’m tweaking cartridges and tonearms - costs less than a single strand of MIT Oracle speaker cables….which i don’t think i’d want anyway.

luxury and enjoyment are are not co-dependent.

 

[Lee]

Tell that to Lee and others, who keep trying to justify them.

I don’t believe all high end prices are justified but I do believe a good number of people are underestimating the cost of parts and labor on the better quality speakers/electronics and the overall cost of operating a business.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I gather from some prior threads that he may not be particuarly popular on WBF so I wondered what you thought would be gained by posting this aside from likely generating personal attacks on the guy.

I'm not sure what this means, or to what you are referring. I think OCD Mikey is fully welcome here.

 

[Verastarr]

Hello Guys !! More drama in the forums I see.. Boy is this a loaded potato...

Ill stick to fact and post an email from the customer to Devore.

0. My client NEVER engaged a dealer in any state not even for a conversation about DeVore speakers. This is a categorically incorrect statement on behalf of DeVore.
1. Customer received a FULL Refund, There was NO RESTOCK fee from me as DeVore inauthentically asserts.
2. DeVore acted like everything was fine, declined my offer for $3800 worth of new merchandise for his troubles, and declined my offer to recover any of his hard costs associated with this return (like packaging for instance)
3. DeVore then made me a refund and short changed me $2,000. (Keep in mind he forced a direct customer return of his own accord. Normally these speakers would come back to my company) Well I dont play that game.. So I told him in an email, I was going to file for an incomplete refund which I did.. You cant just make up a "restock fee" that was never discussed nor agreed to. This is part of PayPal policy. Therefore there was no Fraud complaint for "product not received" as DeVore again, categorically misrepresents in his video.
4. Subsequently he contacted his friend in the media and that pal responded to him in an email, while accidentally cc: ing me in the reply stating "I want to fuck with him". This meant his pal used the Magazine (a big one) to publish an Expose' naming me and purporting the regurgitated false narrative. (ie: the big audio media was used to exact revenge from an upset friend of a manufacturer using his media position as leverage for a personal grievance. 2 weeks later that reviewer was fired from the magazine. I have no idea if it was connected.

So here's DeVore, 6 years later dredging up old crap that was settled and he had already exacted retribution on.

Here is the letter I was copied on by the customer to DeVore:
Dear John Devore,

I have been in contact with Mike Powell who's been updating me regarding all the communication between you, him, and the reviewer (name withheld)

I want to clear things up. Mike Powell has been an upstanding person. He went through hoops to get what i wanted, so if there's any blame to be had it should be on me, the person who put the listing up.

The fact is, a stressful circumstance made my life incredibly difficult, and I couldn't enjoy music anymore. I believed I did nothing wrong by listing them up for sale. It happens all the time - and because I underestimated how tightly manufacturers and dealers control and police the resale market, I didn't know this would cause such a big misunderstanding. Listing the speakers on Audiogon is on me, and me alone. There was no collusion between Mike and me. I read that I supposedly went to a dealer to listen to them -- that is completely untrue. I hope the dealer did not mistaken me for somebody else because of the color of my skin.

When Mike told me to take the listing down, I did so immediately. If I understood the situation correctly, I would've figured out a way to try to make it right for everybody involved. Mike proposed even to have them shipped down to where he is and get them resold within Mike's network after a year without listing them online. I trust that he would have taken care of it. However, when you called me to return them to you directly - this came across to us as seemingly the best for everyone involved. Had I known that it would result in a possible public takedown and a $2000 restock fee, I would not have agreed to it.

I don't think that involving your friend (name withheld) and initiating a public expose is the most reasonable way to handle this situation. Mike Powell told me he was honest about the whole situation afterwards and tried to make it right. Everyone's name and reputation is on the line and airing dirty laundry doesn't really solve anything or alter the changing tides of how consumers make purchasing decisions and would bring everybody's reputation down.

I respect the calm presence you evoked during our every interaction and my apology remains sincere.

Best regards,
Alan

So take it for what its worth gang..

Tomorrow night Ill have a live stream on my channel, if any of you have anything to say to me, then now is the time.. Go ahead, put me on "the spot" if you think Im full of it.. This link is if you want to come on as a guest with a microphone and camera. If you're too shy to show your face, just disable the video part. Lets see if we can get anyone with a worthwhile argument against me. Certainly a lot of people like to run their mouth on the internet hiding behind a moniker and avatar. Im asking for civil discussion in an open forum with intelligent human beings. I figure ive got a much better chance of that here than Audiogon... lol...

StreamYard | Browser-based live studio for professionals

StreamYard is a professional live streaming and recording studio in your browser. Record your content, or stream live to Facebook, YouTube, and other platforms.

streamyard.com

Remember the above link is to join me as a GUEST where everyone can see and hear you, or just hear you. You will click it tomorrow at 9PM EST and be put in a "waiting room" while I take guests one by one. If you just want to watch the stream and perhaps type in comments or simply watch you can do that with the below link:

www.youtube.com/c/ocdhifiguy

Sincerely, Mikey (OCD HiFi Guy)

 

[Lee]

I'm not sure what this means, or to what you are referring. I think OCD Mikey is fully welcome here.

Mike and I are friends. I just want to understand the truth. Mike told me he would respond here. Sounds like there is more to the story.

 

[Lee]

Hello Guys !! More drama in the forums I see.. Boy is this a loaded potato...

Ill stick to fact and post an email from the customer to Devore.

0. My client NEVER engaged a dealer in any state not even for a conversation about DeVore speakers. This is a categorically incorrect statement on behalf of DeVore.
1. Customer received a FULL Refund, There was NO RESTOCK fee from me as DeVore inauthentically asserts.
2. DeVore acted like everything was fine, declined my offer for $3800 worth of new merchandise for his troubles, and declined my offer to recover any of his hard costs associated with this return (like packaging for instance)
3. DeVore then made me a refund and short changed me $2,000. (Keep in mind he forced a direct customer return of his own accord. Normally these speakers would come back to my company) So my opinion is that he inserted himself in the return for the purpose of short changing me as well as killing my ability to recoup the lost profit. Well I dont play that game.. So I told him in an email, I was going to file for an incomplete refund which I did.. You cant just make up a "restock fee" that was never discussed nor agreed to. This is part of PayPal policy.
4. Subsequently he contacted his friend in the media and that pal responded to him in an email, while accidentally cc: ing me in the reply stating "I want to fuck with him". This meant his pal used the Magazine (a big one) to publish an Expose' naming me and purporting the regurgitated false narrative. (ie: the big audio media was used to exact revenge from an upset friend of a manufacturer using his media position as leverage for a personal grievance. 2 weeks later that reviewer was fired from the magazine. I have no idea if it was connected.

So here's DeVore, 6 years later dredging up old crap that was settled and he had already exacted retribution on.

Here is the letter I was copied on by the customer to DeVore:
Dear John Devore,

I have been in contact with Mike Powell who's been updating me regarding all the communication between you, him, and the reviewer (name withheld)

I want to clear things up. Mike Powell has been an upstanding person. He went through hoops to get what i wanted, so if there's any blame to be had it should be on me, the person who put the listing up.

The fact is, a stressful circumstance made my life incredibly difficult, and I couldn't enjoy music anymore. I believed I did nothing wrong by listing them up for sale. It happens all the time - and because I underestimated how tightly manufacturers and dealers control and police the resale market, I didn't know this would cause such a big misunderstanding. Listing the speakers on Audiogon is on me, and me alone. There was no collusion between Mike and me. I read that I supposedly went to a dealer to listen to them -- that is completely untrue. I hope the dealer did not mistaken me for somebody else because of the color of my skin.

When Mike told me to take the listing down, I did so immediately. If I understood the situation correctly, I would've figured out a way to try to make it right for everybody involved. Mike proposed even to have them shipped down to where he is and get them resold within Mike's network after a year without listing them online. I trust that he would have taken care of it. However, when you called me to return them to you directly - this came across to us as seemingly the best for everyone involved. Had I known that it would result in a possible public takedown and a $2000 restock fee, I would not have agreed to it.

I don't think that involving your friend (name withheld) and initiating a public expose is the most reasonable way to handle this situation. Mike Powell told me he was honest about the whole situation afterwards and tried to make it right. Everyone's name and reputation is on the line and airing dirty laundry doesn't really solve anything or alter the changing tides of how consumers make purchasing decisions and would bring everybody's reputation down.

I respect the calm presence you evoked during our every interaction and my apology remains sincere.

Best regards,
Alan

So take it for what its worth gang..

Tomorrow night Ill have a live stream on my channel, if any of you have anything to say to me, then now is the time.. Go ahead, put me on "the spot" if you think Im full of it.. This link is if you want to come on as a guest with a microphone and camera. If you're too shy to show your face, just disable the video part. Lets see if we can get anyone with a worthwhile argument against me. Certainly a lot of people like to run their mouth on the internet hiding behind a moniker and avatar. Im asking for civil discussion in an open forum with intelligent human beings. I figure ive got a much better chance of that here than Audiogon... lol...

StreamYard | Browser-based live studio for professionals

StreamYard is a professional live streaming and recording studio in your browser. Record your content, or stream live to Facebook, YouTube, and other platforms.

streamyard.com

Remember the above link is to join me as a GUEST where everyone can see and hear you, or just hear you. You will click it tomorrow at 9PM EST and be put in a "waiting room" while I take guests one by one. If you just want to watch the stream and perhaps type in comments or simply watch you can do that with the below link:

www.youtube.com/c/ocdhifiguy

Sincerely, Mikey (OCD HiFi Guy)

Thank you for your response Mike.

 

[Robh3606]

Tell that to Lee and others, who keep trying to justify them.

Nobody is trying to justify anything and more importantly no one on this forum, or any other forum, should have to justify buying decisions based on another persons view point of value. It's completely irrelevant.

These are luxury goods and it is what it is. Not happy with a products value, vote with your wallet and don't purchase it.

Someone else may not agree and purchase it. That's their choice.

Rob

 

[Lee]

These are luxury goods and it is what it is. Not happy with a products value, vote with your wallet and don't purchase it.

Someone else may not agree and purchase it. That's their choice.

Rob

This times infinity.

 

[dminches]

Hello Guys !! More drama in the forums I see.. Boy is this a loaded potato...

Ill stick to fact and post an email from the customer to Devore.

0. My client NEVER engaged a dealer in any state not even for a conversation about DeVore speakers. This is a categorically incorrect statement on behalf of DeVore.
1. Customer received a FULL Refund, There was NO RESTOCK fee from me as DeVore inauthentically asserts.
2. DeVore acted like everything was fine, declined my offer for $3800 worth of new merchandise for his troubles, and declined my offer to recover any of his hard costs associated with this return (like packaging for instance)
3. DeVore then made me a refund and short changed me $2,000. (Keep in mind he forced a direct customer return of his own accord. Normally these speakers would come back to my company) Well I dont play that game.. So I told him in an email, I was going to file for an incomplete refund which I did.. You cant just make up a "restock fee" that was never discussed nor agreed to. This is part of PayPal policy. Therefore there was no Fraud complaint for "product not received" as DeVore again, categorically misrepresents in his video.
4. Subsequently he contacted his friend in the media and that pal responded to him in an email, while accidentally cc: ing me in the reply stating "I want to fuck with him". This meant his pal used the Magazine (a big one) to publish an Expose' naming me and purporting the regurgitated false narrative. (ie: the big audio media was used to exact revenge from an upset friend of a manufacturer using his media position as leverage for a personal grievance. 2 weeks later that reviewer was fired from the magazine. I have no idea if it was connected.

Sincerely, Mikey (OCD HiFi Guy)

The question you haven’t answered is “did you purchase the speakers at industry accommodation prices for your client and did you disclose that to DeVore at the time you purchased them?”

 

[Another Johnson]

I don’t know any of the parties involved. It is odd that this is coming out 6 years after the events.

My sense is that DeVore feels that Powell obtained the industry accommodation price under false pretenses. Powell had no intention of using them himself. It wasn’t a gray market sale. It was an accommodation sale under false pretenses.

I did not see Powell’s refutation of that point.

 

[Audiohertz2]

I do find Devore video rants a bit odd at the very best glad you cleared this up with your side of it ..!

Hello Guys !! More drama in the forums I see.. Boy is this a loaded potato...

Ill stick to fact and post an email from the customer to Devore.

0. My client NEVER engaged a dealer in any state not even for a conversation about DeVore speakers. This is a categorically incorrect statement on behalf of DeVore.
1. Customer received a FULL Refund, There was NO RESTOCK fee from me as DeVore inauthentically asserts.
2. DeVore acted like everything was fine, declined my offer for $3800 worth of new merchandise for his troubles, and declined my offer to recover any of his hard costs associated with this return (like packaging for instance)
3. DeVore then made me a refund and short changed me $2,000. (Keep in mind he forced a direct customer return of his own accord. Normally these speakers would come back to my company) Well I dont play that game.. So I told him in an email, I was going to file for an incomplete refund which I did.. You cant just make up a "restock fee" that was never discussed nor agreed to. This is part of PayPal policy. Therefore there was no Fraud complaint for "product not received" as DeVore again, categorically misrepresents in his video.
4. Subsequently he contacted his friend in the media and that pal responded to him in an email, while accidentally cc: ing me in the reply stating "I want to fuck with him". This meant his pal used the Magazine (a big one) to publish an Expose' naming me and purporting the regurgitated false narrative. (ie: the big audio media was used to exact revenge from an upset friend of a manufacturer using his media position as leverage for a personal grievance. 2 weeks later that reviewer was fired from the magazine. I have no idea if it was connected.

So here's DeVore, 6 years later dredging up old crap that was settled and he had already exacted retribution on.

Here is the letter I was copied on by the customer to DeVore:
Dear John Devore,

I have been in contact with Mike Powell who's been updating me regarding all the communication between you, him, and the reviewer (name withheld)

I want to clear things up. Mike Powell has been an upstanding person. He went through hoops to get what i wanted, so if there's any blame to be had it should be on me, the person who put the listing up.

The fact is, a stressful circumstance made my life incredibly difficult, and I couldn't enjoy music anymore. I believed I did nothing wrong by listing them up for sale. It happens all the time - and because I underestimated how tightly manufacturers and dealers control and police the resale market, I didn't know this would cause such a big misunderstanding. Listing the speakers on Audiogon is on me, and me alone. There was no collusion between Mike and me. I read that I supposedly went to a dealer to listen to them -- that is completely untrue. I hope the dealer did not mistaken me for somebody else because of the color of my skin.

When Mike told me to take the listing down, I did so immediately. If I understood the situation correctly, I would've figured out a way to try to make it right for everybody involved. Mike proposed even to have them shipped down to where he is and get them resold within Mike's network after a year without listing them online. I trust that he would have taken care of it. However, when you called me to return them to you directly - this came across to us as seemingly the best for everyone involved. Had I known that it would result in a possible public takedown and a $2000 restock fee, I would not have agreed to it.

I don't think that involving your friend (name withheld) and initiating a public expose is the most reasonable way to handle this situation. Mike Powell told me he was honest about the whole situation afterwards and tried to make it right. Everyone's name and reputation is on the line and airing dirty laundry doesn't really solve anything or alter the changing tides of how consumers make purchasing decisions and would bring everybody's reputation down.

I respect the calm presence you evoked during our every interaction and my apology remains sincere.

Best regards,
Alan

So take it for what its worth gang..

Tomorrow night Ill have a live stream on my channel, if any of you have anything to say to me, then now is the time.. Go ahead, put me on "the spot" if you think Im full of it.. This link is if you want to come on as a guest with a microphone and camera. If you're too shy to show your face, just disable the video part. Lets see if we can get anyone with a worthwhile argument against me. Certainly a lot of people like to run their mouth on the internet hiding behind a moniker and avatar. Im asking for civil discussion in an open forum with intelligent human beings. I figure ive got a much better chance of that here than Audiogon... lol...

StreamYard | Browser-based live studio for professionals

StreamYard is a professional live streaming and recording studio in your browser. Record your content, or stream live to Facebook, YouTube, and other platforms.

streamyard.com

Remember the above link is to join me as a GUEST where everyone can see and hear you, or just hear you. You will click it tomorrow at 9PM EST and be put in a "waiting room" while I take guests one by one. If you just want to watch the stream and perhaps type in comments or simply watch you can do that with the below link:

www.youtube.com/c/ocdhifiguy

Sincerely, Mikey (OCD HiFi Guy)

 

[facten]

I'm not sure what this means, or to what you are referring. I think OCD Mikey is fully welcome here

It's my take from some other threads . Scroll back to Post 97 and see what Mike stated regarding motivation. Also, if someone is supposedly a friend all you need to do is ask the question directly versus starting a Forum thread to obtain the answer; but that's just me.

 

[Verastarr]

The question you haven’t answered is “did you purchase the speakers at industry accommodation prices for your client and did you disclose that to DeVore at the time you purchased them?”

Holy Crap, are you THAT dense ??? ROFL.... did you even read what I wrote ?? Dang, I thought this was the intelligent forum..

 

[hopkins]

Holy Crap, are you THAT dense ??? ROFL.... did you even read what I wrote ?? Dang, I thought this was the intelligent forum..

Once again: did you purchase the speakers at industry accomodation price for your client, and if so, was De Vore made aware of this?

Simple yes/no questions.

No need for insults here.

 

[dminches]

Holy Crap, are you THAT dense ??? ROFL.... did you even read what I wrote ?? Dang, I thought this was the intelligent forum..

You did not address my question and if you think you did then you are clearly hiding something. If you did address it please show me where. All you said was that your customer did not engage a dealer. You seemed to say you did buy a pair of speakers but it doesn't say that you used them. You said that your customer received a full refund which seems to indicate that he got the speakers. I did not see that you are a dealer so I cannot connect the dots and understand that he didn't buy the speakers from you.

 

[jonathanhorwich]

Holy Crap, are you THAT dense ??? ROFL.... did you even read what I wrote ?? Dang, I thought this was the intelligent forum..

I have the same question as Hopkins. If we missed something please quote the part we missed with apologies ahead of time. The whole point of all this despite the many pages of comments is was an unintended customer sold a pair of speakers meant as an accommodation pair from Devore which ended up in a customer's hands without being shipped to Verastarr. It is an easy yes or no. That would clear it up for all of us. Thanks Verastarr.

 

[adyc]

Hello Guys !! More drama in the forums I see.. Boy is this a loaded potato...

Ill stick to fact and post an email from the customer to Devore.

0. My client NEVER engaged a dealer in any state not even for a conversation about DeVore speakers. This is a categorically incorrect statement on behalf of DeVore.
1. Customer received a FULL Refund, There was NO RESTOCK fee from me as DeVore inauthentically asserts.
2. DeVore acted like everything was fine, declined my offer for $3800 worth of new merchandise for his troubles, and declined my offer to recover any of his hard costs associated with this return (like packaging for instance)
3. DeVore then made me a refund and short changed me $2,000. (Keep in mind he forced a direct customer return of his own accord. Normally these speakers would come back to my company) Well I dont play that game.. So I told him in an email, I was going to file for an incomplete refund which I did.. You cant just make up a "restock fee" that was never discussed nor agreed to. This is part of PayPal policy. Therefore there was no Fraud complaint for "product not received" as DeVore again, categorically misrepresents in his video.
4. Subsequently he contacted his friend in the media and that pal responded to him in an email, while accidentally cc: ing me in the reply stating "I want to fuck with him". This meant his pal used the Magazine (a big one) to publish an Expose' naming me and purporting the regurgitated false narrative. (ie: the big audio media was used to exact revenge from an upset friend of a manufacturer using his media position as leverage for a personal grievance. 2 weeks later that reviewer was fired from the magazine. I have no idea if it was connected.

So here's DeVore, 6 years later dredging up old crap that was settled and he had already exacted retribution on.

Here is the letter I was copied on by the customer to DeVore:
Dear John Devore,

I have been in contact with Mike Powell who's been updating me regarding all the communication between you, him, and the reviewer (name withheld)

I want to clear things up. Mike Powell has been an upstanding person. He went through hoops to get what i wanted, so if there's any blame to be had it should be on me, the person who put the listing up.

The fact is, a stressful circumstance made my life incredibly difficult, and I couldn't enjoy music anymore. I believed I did nothing wrong by listing them up for sale. It happens all the time - and because I underestimated how tightly manufacturers and dealers control and police the resale market, I didn't know this would cause such a big misunderstanding. Listing the speakers on Audiogon is on me, and me alone. There was no collusion between Mike and me. I read that I supposedly went to a dealer to listen to them -- that is completely untrue. I hope the dealer did not mistaken me for somebody else because of the color of my skin.

When Mike told me to take the listing down, I did so immediately. If I understood the situation correctly, I would've figured out a way to try to make it right for everybody involved. Mike proposed even to have them shipped down to where he is and get them resold within Mike's network after a year without listing them online. I trust that he would have taken care of it. However, when you called me to return them to you directly - this came across to us as seemingly the best for everyone involved. Had I known that it would result in a possible public takedown and a $2000 restock fee, I would not have agreed to it.

I don't think that involving your friend (name withheld) and initiating a public expose is the most reasonable way to handle this situation. Mike Powell told me he was honest about the whole situation afterwards and tried to make it right. Everyone's name and reputation is on the line and airing dirty laundry doesn't really solve anything or alter the changing tides of how consumers make purchasing decisions and would bring everybody's reputation down.

I respect the calm presence you evoked during our every interaction and my apology remains sincere.

Best regards,
Alan

So take it for what its worth gang..

Tomorrow night Ill have a live stream on my channel, if any of you have anything to say to me, then now is the time.. Go ahead, put me on "the spot" if you think Im full of it.. This link is if you want to come on as a guest with a microphone and camera. If you're too shy to show your face, just disable the video part. Lets see if we can get anyone with a worthwhile argument against me. Certainly a lot of people like to run their mouth on the internet hiding behind a moniker and avatar. Im asking for civil discussion in an open forum with intelligent human beings. I figure ive got a much better chance of that here than Audiogon... lol...

StreamYard | Browser-based live studio for professionals

StreamYard is a professional live streaming and recording studio in your browser. Record your content, or stream live to Facebook, YouTube, and other platforms.

streamyard.com

Remember the above link is to join me as a GUEST where everyone can see and hear you, or just hear you. You will click it tomorrow at 9PM EST and be put in a "waiting

Holy Crap, are you THAT dense ??? ROFL.... did you even read what I wrote ?? Dang, I thought this was the intelligent forum..

It seems that Alan got the full refund from you and you got back the money back from John through PayPal. Did you act as a dealer in this transaction? Are you a recognized dealer of Devore ever?

 

[Robert Young]

Holy Crap, are you THAT dense ??? ROFL.... did you even read what I wrote ?? Dang, I thought this was the intelligent forum..

I’ll bite, because indeed i’m happily dense.

Answer the question, or the narrative as it has developed stands.

 

[sbo6]

What makes you think that it is only three rotten apples out of the barrel? Have you ever worked on electronics development and manufacturing? I have done both military and aerospace, for NASA, design development and manufacturing of limited & small batch run electronics and can assure you that the retail cost of high-end products is not inline with their development and production costs.

I have also, military, medical and consumer / commercial electronics. But I worked not only on the technical side, but also the business side. And I can assure you that each industry is different and has its own share of risks, operating / sustainability costs, R&D, Mkt, etc. that you're obviously not aware of and most are not remotely as lucrative as one might imagine when all costs are accounted for.