KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[213Cobra]

I readily admit to not being as good on the technical understanding of this as you are, Phil. I was focusing less on absolute SPL achievement than I was on the fact that whatever was going on at that SPL I did not hear the jump factor and dynamics I know I want and I know Keith wants.

I cannot apportion contributory negligence between impedance mismatch and gain mismatch, but I still feel gain mismatch was part of the issue. I don't think it's a surprise that an input stage which is only half as sensitive as another input stage, where both amplifiers report almost the same gain specification, results in a slightly sluggish, dullish sound than the latter, more sensitive amplifier.

If that same former, less sensitive input stage were kicked alive with many volts of conventional line-stage pre-amplification I think the sound from the 160M would have been very different.

The good news is that if I'm wrong and you're correct then Keith should have no hesitation about considering my recommendation of Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse monos. I hereby renominate that amplifier.

Most hifi systems have too much gain. One reason is this thinking that each component in the chain has to be able to throw enough voltage (or at some stages, current) to be able to clip the input of the next stage. Now, if you have a source that tops out at 1v clean output and an amp that needs 3.5v input to output full power, that's going to be trouble. But in this case we have a Luxman amp with an input sensitivity of 1.24v and an ARC with 1.4v input sensitivity, and another ARC with 2.4v input sensitivity. Into those we have an MSB DAC with 2.65v output at 0db with up to 7.5v available. And another +6db of gain available from the TVC.

Yet all of the amps, regardless of input sensitivity and impedance, except the m2techs, lacked jump factor when lashed to YG. Gain wasn't the problem. The MSB has the output ability to drive all of the amps into clipping before the TVC level switch hits 0db.

I am reasonably confident the Aesthetix will be able to drive the YG but I don't think its voicing will be a good match to the YG for tonal and spatial satisfaction. No harm trying.

Phil

 

[213Cobra]

Phil,

This is a very important and well put point (for you) / question (to me).

Keith,

Is this true?

Did the 160M sound normal and great when you used the MSB as the source?

Ron - we were listening to the 160m from the MSB when it sounded poorly. My point was that the MSB + TVC wasn't causal. It's the amp/speaker interface that was.

Phil

 

[spiritofmusic]

So, did Keith buy these spkrs on the promise/expectation that he'd find the right amp down the road? Interesting decision, he's obv a confident fellow.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron - we were listening to the 160m from the MSB when it sounded poorly. My point was that the MSB + TVC wasn't causal. It's the amp/speaker interface that was.

Phil

Ah, okay. I misunderstood.

 

[213Cobra]

I did make that comment as, indeed, Keith was listening at (much) louder volumes than he usually listens to. And that's because the system was sounding fairly good and COMPLETELY RELAXED and fatigue free, which is what allows one to keep bumping the volume up and up. If the amps were straining in any way, he simply would not be able to stand, or he would've lowered the volume instinctively.

Well, we can disagree here. I walked in on that audition and did not find it in any way relaxed and sounding good, even when the volume was reduced. Certainly not sounding good for expectations for a $15K amp driving $48K speakers. The combination of the Luxman and YG was, to me, egregiously fatiguing but considerably less so that the complete unsuitability of the 160m lashed to the same speaker. The Luxman improved when you changed out whatever power cord you were using, which removed a lot of the congestion and blurring. There was further improvement when Keith's cabling was restored, but none of these changes uncovered missing dynamics, shove and bass. The Luxman also projected a distinctly smaller soundstage than the M2techs, which certainly surprised me. Keith liked the texture delivery of the Luxman at the endpoint of the variables having been settled. I found that harder to appreciate for anomalies that remained audible and distracting. But it did get good enough that I was willing to believe bridged Luxman monoblocks might have a chance, if Keith wanted the expenditure.

Walking in on that audition, the amp/speaker combination sounded strained to me and when volume was lowered, it sounded inarticulate on complex music but credible on simple vocal + instrument music or solo piano, for example. It was not tolerable on full orchestra, to me. We didn't try Metallica! Again, I am sure the Luxman would not exhibit these deficiencies with certain other speakers of many designs.

Phil

 

[chuck]

As a YG owner (Sonja XV), this discussion of amps is amusing. I am listening as I write this and none of the problems discussed in this thread are present -- just effortless, amazing sound.

 

[213Cobra]

What amplification? -Phil

As a YG owner (Sonja XV), this discussion of amps is amusing. I am listening as I write this and none of the problems discussed in this thread are present -- just effortless, amazing sound.

 

[Ron Resnick]

As a YG owner (Sonja XV), this discussion of amps is amusing. I am listening as I write this and none of the problems discussed in this thread are present -- just effortless, amazing sound.

With Boulder 1008 phono stage and Audio Research Reference Anniversary pre-amplifier and Boulder 3060 amplifier I would expect that you are not experiencing any impedance mismatch or gain mismatch issues.

 

[Barry2013]

And puzzling.
I have the earlier YG Kipod Signature passives same sensitivity powered by the relatively modestly powered Vitus SIA 025 which are playing now on my Magnum Dynalab 109T FM tuner. Sounding delightful but at the upper end of the amps output.

 

[jeff1225]

As a YG owner (Sonja XV), this discussion of amps is amusing. I am listening as I write this and none of the problems discussed in this thread are present -- just effortless, amazing sound.

Completely difference speaker.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I find it interesting that we're talking about the very demo that Keith agreed to buy these spkrs, the demo is noteworthy but not in a good way, yet Keith is not adding much to the discussion.

I'd like to know if Keith wholly agrees w Phil. Or whether Keith, Phil and Alex agree to disagree? At least 2 against 1.

 

[bonzo75]

And puzzling.
I have the earlier YG Kipod Signature passives same sensitivity powered by the relatively modestly powered Vitus SIA 025 which are playing now on my Magnum Dynalab 109T FM tuner. Sounding delightful but at the upper end of the amps output.

The Vitus has a lot of current. The Luxman separates will do better than a Vitus integrated. Too much theory on this thread, the result would only have been known if different preamps had been rotated. The problem with in-house demos is unless the person has a lot of budget to line up all gear like Tang, they usually run the component unoptimised. It is usually better to have a reference sound of the component to know if it is behaving the same way in your system. Though in this case rotating an AR pre and Nagra pre would not have been difficult as Alma audio stocks them.

 

[morricab]

The Vitus has a lot of current. The Luxman separates will do better than a Vitus integrated. Too much theory on this thread, the result would only have been known if different preamps had been rotated. The problem with in-house demos is unless the person has a lot of budget to line up all gear like Tang, they usually run the component unoptimised. It is usually better to have a reference sound of the component to know if it is behaving the same way in your system. Though in this case rotating an AR pre and Nagra pre would not have been difficult as Alma audio stocks them.

Agree, the preamp in this case could have been evaluated and IMO would have definitely made a significant impact on the outcome.

 

[213Cobra]

I find it interesting that we're talking about the very demo that Keith agreed to buy these spkrs, the demo is noteworthy but not in a good way, yet Keith is not adding much to the discussion.

I'd like to know if Keith wholly agrees w Phil. Or whether Keith, Phil and Alex agree to disagree? At least 2 against 1.

It was the M2tech amps that laid a baseline of performance that allowed Keith to make the decision to commit to the YG. With that as baseline and knowing there are options above the M2techs, he proceeded with the speaker, having sufficient confidence that the amp problem is solvable within what he wants to spend. I suggested the Bongiorno monoblocks as a low risk start with high potential to be both a start and a finish.

Phil

 

[Ron Resnick]

. .
I'd like to know if Keith wholly agrees w Phil. Or whether Keith, Phil and Alex agree to disagree? At least 2 against 1.

Agree, the preamp in this case could have been evaluated and IMO would have definitely made a significant impact on the outcome.

Except purely as a matter of intellectual curiosity there was no reason to evaluate other preamps when Keith is 100% for sure keeping the Music First.

 

[213Cobra]

I find it interesting that we're talking about the very demo that Keith agreed to buy these spkrs, the demo is noteworthy but not in a good way, yet Keith is not adding much to the discussion.

I'd like to know if Keith wholly agrees w Phil. Or whether Keith, Phil and Alex agree to disagree? At least 2 against 1.

It could be 200 against 1 and you know that if I'm the 1, I am unpersuaded by majorities. I have no problem being out of step with the mainstream hifi army.

Phil

 

[bonzo75]

Except purely as a matter of intellectual curiosity there was no reason to evaluate other preamps when Keith is 100% for sure keeping the Music First.

This is not about keeping the music first. It is about knowing what a component sounds like and what direction you can go over the longer term.

 

[morricab]

It was the M2tech amps that laid a baseline of performance that allowed Keith to make the decision to commit to the YG. With that as baseline and knowing there are options above the M2techs, he proceeded with the speaker, having sufficient confidence that the amp problem is solvable within what he wants to spend. I suggested the Bongiorno monoblocks as a low risk start with high potential to be both a start and a finish.

Phil

The ampzilla monos lack resolution in their attempt to be "tubelike". I have found that only hybrid amps can begin to approach from the SS side what a really good tube amp can do. Most hybrids don't get it right either. The fundamental signature of SS is inherent in the devices used (transfer function) and their implementation (ie. a lot of negative feedback...too many devices etc.). BAT was also trying to get "tubelike" sound from their SS amps and got something pleasant, warm and a bit dark...but it wasn't really tubelike...one listen to their VK60, 75 etc. told you this right away. Interestingly, reversing the hybrid can work very well (such as KR Audio and Music Reference also had a hybrid where the output stage was tube). The Music Reference RM200 was a good sounding PP tube amp that could drive very tough loads...something for Keith to think about and won't be expensive if he can find one.

 

[213Cobra]

The Vitus has a lot of current. The Luxman separates will do better than a Vitus integrated. Too much theory on this thread, the result would only have been known if different preamps had been rotated. The problem with in-house demos is unless the person has a lot of budget to line up all gear like Tang, they usually run the component unoptimised. It is usually better to have a reference sound of the component to know if it is behaving the same way in your system. Though in this case rotating an AR pre and Nagra pre would not have been difficult as Alma audio stocks them.

Nevertheless you are missing the point that the Music First TVC is fixed. Keith is committed to it. There is no evidence that the TVC was the causal factor here, and plenty of evidence it is not. But regardless, there are four fixed points in Keith's system: turntable, DAC, TVC and now YG. An amp has to be selected to slot in, perform its role, and work in that context of associated equipment. He is not trying to optimize the system around an amp. The amp has to be optimum for the TVC and speaker.

Phil

 

[Ron Resnick]

This is not about keeping the music first. It is about knowing what a component sounds like and what direction you can go over the longer term.

That is the question in KedarWorld. It was not the question in KeithLand.