KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[spiritofmusic]

Have v much enjoyed listening to Blue58's system using a Java Triple Shot optologic passive pre.

My experience w the passive Townshend Allegri pre was one of the most frustrating ones in stuff I've trialled over the yrs.

 

[213Cobra]

You can calculate it simply. . And this system had done just fine with loaner amps Phil brought.

Yes, correct. Again -- the sources + TVC work well into 300kOhm ARC REF75SE when powering Devore Gibbon X but not when powering YG Hailey. The system did not work with 200kOhm input impedance ARC 160m powering YG. That was the worst sound of all. The 34kOhm input Luxman was better but still flawed as described. The 20kHz input m2tech had none of these issues powering YG just as 300kOhm REF75SE had none of these issues powering Devore.

The DAC and phono pre driving the amps through the TVC worked equally well at 300kOhms driving a different speaker and at 20kOhms driving the YGs. The loaner amps drive anything. I have listened to that at 4 ohms to 16 ohms with no deviation in SQ. All the variables here point to poor amp/speaker performance rather than poor sources+TVC/amp performance. There also was enough gain even at the 160m's relatively lower input sensitivity. Also note that Keith (well, Ron and Jeff were apparently the instigators) managed to push the Luxman into clipping in what some of you have described as a small room. I wasn't present for that, but it doesn't surprise me given what I was hearing from the Luxman earlier.

BTW, I use a TVC with amps ranging from 20kOhms to 1 meg input impedances, with none of these problems described. Even my Nagra BPS phono, powered by a 9v battery, can drive, via TVC, that range of amps and with dynamics, bass response and clarity intact.

Phil

 

[bazelio]

The fact that the same chain works fine with 20Kohm amps tells me we should move on the from TVC topic. I seriously want to understand what makes YG so difficult to drive.

 

[asiufy]

Room. Alma thinks it's the room. Someone else thinks it's the TVC. Balderdash.

Really? Where have I said that it's the room? From day one, when I set up Keith's speakers in the new space, I congratulated him on finding such an amazing sounding room. So no, "Alma does NOT think it's the room".

 

[213Cobra]

I suspect it's this. The complexity necessary to deliver time and frequency coherence in a crossover for a 3 way speaker.

 

[KeithR]

Let’s move on fellas. No harm that a couple of amps didn’t work out. There will soon be one that does.

When I bought my Devores, I used a Dartzeel CTH at the time that wasnt an ideal match. I tried many, many amps on Zu and ended up on a totally different direction than where I began. It happens.

 

[asiufy]

The fact that the same chain works fine with 20Kohm amps tells me we should move on the from TVC topic. I seriously want to understand what makes YG so difficult to drive.

While I agree we should move on from the TVC topic (because KeithR has REPEATEDLY said they're not going anywhere), it should also be perfectly clear that the TVC is not making it any easier for the amp to drive the speakers.
As I said, I know the amps I brought there well, in a number of systems, with and without YGs. The only major differences at Keith's were the TVC and his cabling, and the amps, as I said, were unrecognizable. So to assume the TVC (and cables) didn't have anything to do with the end result is simply absurd.

 

[213Cobra]

Really? Where have I said that it's the room? From day one, when I set up Keith's speakers in the new space, I congratulated him on finding such an amazing sounding room. So no, "Alma does NOT think it's the room".

You earlier wrote this:

"...More power would've been nice, but we clearly were reaching the room's ability to play loud (overexciting it) before we reached the amp's...."

 

[bazelio]

I suspect it's this. The complexity necessary to deliver time and frequency coherence in a crossover for a 3 way speaker.

I use 3 way 87dB 4ohm (stable) speakers with my Dart 108. Non-issue for dynamics in my small to medium sized room. Not apples to apples of course but a data point. I would think YG phase angle to be under control as well. Still puzzled.

Edit: I don't have thunderous sub terranean bass either, but then neither does my music. I'm not an edm fan. So I was thinking it's a horses for courses scenario except that Alex says the amps were unrecognizable.

 

[DaveC]

I suspect it's this. The complexity necessary to deliver time and frequency coherence in a crossover for a 3 way speaker.

Exactly how and why are these xos so different?

TVC topic has been gone over but with no real facts on the ability of the source to provide current or how/why YGs are so difficult to drive. My simple suggestion is to borrow a buffer and see if inserting it after the TVC helps. It may or may not, I have no idea, but it'll certainly give some valuable info and experience.

 

[asiufy]

You earlier wrote this:

"...More power would've been nice, but we clearly were reaching the room's ability to play loud (overexciting it) before we reached the amp's...."

Again, you simply do not read what I write. That comment was in relation to our room at THE Show.

 

[213Cobra]

While I agree we should move on from the TVC topic (because KeithR has REPEATEDLY said they're not going anywhere), it should also be perfectly clear that the TVC is not making it any easier for the amp to drive the speakers.
As I said, I know the amps I brought there well, in a number of systems, with and without YGs. The only major differences at Keith's were the TVC and his cabling, and the amps, as I said, were unrecognizable. So to assume the TVC (and cables) didn't have anything to do with the end result is simply absurd.

A TVC does not make it more difficult for an amp to drive a given speaker! That is a function of the amp/speaker interface. A TVC may-can-might make it more difficult for a given source to drive a given amplifier. Both of Keith's sources work via TVC with a wide variety of amps.

The ARC REF75SE should have been able to deliver good "first watt" sound at modest levels. It couldn't with the YGs but made the Devores sound their best, with strong dynamics and clarity. The 160m should have been able to deliver better "first watt" sound, but could not. Both amps were intrinsically muddied and compromised driving the YG. The Luxman was better but the shortcomings I heard from it were consistent with what I've heard from Luxman + YG in other environments, which I was in the past willing to attribute to those being shows. Now I've heard the same deficiencies in a house with a much smaller space. Maybe a pair of Luxmans as monoblocks would be more successful; I can't say. But nothing I've heard in the past few years suggests Luxman + YG is a suitable pairing, and that's not casting aspersions on either of them. They just don't work together, that's all. No harm, no foul. But when a $2600 pair of class D, ICE-based amps @ 20kOhms input impedance and 440w output potential are good enough to enable the YG to be evaluated, whereas the other amps were not, that's a signpost worth paying attention to. Neither the room nor the TVC were causal.

Phil

 

[213Cobra]

Again, you simply do not read what I write. That comment was in relation to our room at THE Show.

I read what you wrote. It was not clear that you were referring to THE Show room when making that comment, rather than Keith's, particularly since your next sentence referenced Keith's 400w comment. If you did not mean to site Keith's room, then I retract the comment. But I also have to note that when we were commenting on problems with the Luxman in your presence, you pointed out that Keith was listening at higher SPL than you'd heard him do at his prior location, and made the same "overexciting the room" observation, as some kind of reason for what we were hearing. The amp, however, had the same deficiencies in combination with the YG at lower and low listening levels. -Phil

 

[asiufy]

OK, let's let it be.
I just need to say that, in my professional opinion, having listened to these products in many different situations over the years, the Luxman is more than adequate for YGs, your opinion notwithstanding. And we'll continue to display and recommend this pairing, as it provides excellent value for money, when partnered with a suitable preamp (maybe Luxman's own tube preamp). Like I said, folks are welcome to come check the combo out in the store anytime.
My mistake here is that I was not aware of what the TVC could potentially do, as Keith's system with the DeVores and TVC was indeed quite good. Now I know, and as I told Keith, I won't risk recommending amps anymore, since they WILL perform uncharacteristically in his system.

 

[asiufy]

I read what you wrote. It was not clear that you were referring to THE Show room when making that comment, rather than Keith's, particularly since your next sentence referenced Keith's 400w comment. If you did not mean to site Keith's room, then I retract the comment. But I also have to note that when we were commenting on problems with the Luxman in your presence, you pointed out that Keith was listening at higher SPL than you'd heard him do at his prior location, and made the same "overexciting the room" observation, as some kind of reason for what we were hearing. The amp, however, had the same deficiencies in combination with the YG at lower and low listening levels. -Phil

I did make that comment as, indeed, Keith was listening at (much) louder volumes than he usually listens to. And that's because the system was sounding fairly good and COMPLETELY RELAXED and fatigue free, which is what allows one to keep bumping the volume up and up. If the amps were straining in any way, he simply would not be able to stand, or he would've lowered the volume instinctively.

 

[morricab]

I suspect it's this. The complexity necessary to deliver time and frequency coherence in a crossover for a 3 way speaker.

Not time coherent:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/yg-acoustics-carmel-2-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/yg-acoustics-sonja-13-loudspeaker-measurements
and they are about 3db less sensitive than they are rated.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Except that the 160M wasn't really lacking gain. The system drove plenty of loudness. It just did so absent of *any* jump factor or tone. The TVC could have added +6db more gain but it wasn't needed. This was not a gain mismatch issue. -Phil

I readily admit to not being as good on the technical understanding of this as you are, Phil. I was focusing less on absolute SPL achievement than I was on the fact that whatever was going on at that SPL I did not hear the jump factor and dynamics I know I want and I know Keith wants.

I cannot apportion contributory negligence between impedance mismatch and gain mismatch, but I still feel gain mismatch was part of the issue. I don't think it's a surprise that an input stage which is only half as sensitive as another input stage, where both amplifiers report almost the same gain specification, results in a slightly sluggish, dullish sound than the latter, more sensitive amplifier.

If that same former, less sensitive input stage were kicked alive with many volts of conventional line-stage pre-amplification I think the sound from the 160M would have been very different.

The good news is that if I'm wrong and you're correct then Keith should have no hesitation about considering my recommendation of Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse monos. I hereby renominate that amplifier.

 

[morricab]

I readily admit to not being as good on the technical understanding of this as you are, Phil. I was focusing less on absolute SPL achievement than I was on the fact that whatever was going on at that SPL I did not hear the jump factor and dynamics I know I want and I know Keith wants.

I cannot apportion contributory negligence between impedance mismatch and gain mismatch, but I still feel that gain mismatch was part of the issue. I don't think it's a surprise that an input stage which is only half as sensitive as another input stage, where both amplifiers report almost the same gain specification, results in a slightly sluggish, dullish sound than the latter, more sensitive amplifier.

If that same former, less sensitive input stage were kicked alive with many volts of conventional line-stage pre-amplification I think the sound from the 160M would have been very different.

The good news is that if I'm wrong and you're correct then Keith should have no hesitation about considering my recommendation of Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse monos. I hereby renominate that amplifier.

I think too that would be a pretty good choice.

 

[213Cobra]

OK, let's let it be.
I just need to say that, in my professional opinion, having listened to these products in many different situations over the years, the Luxman is more than adequate for YGs, your opinion notwithstanding. And we'll continue to display and recommend this pairing, as it provides excellent value for money, when partnered with a suitable preamp (maybe Luxman's own tube preamp). Like I said, folks are welcome to come check the combo out in the store anytime.
My mistake here is that I was not aware of what the TVC could potentially do, as Keith's system with the DeVores and TVC was indeed quite good. Now I know, and as I told Keith, I won't risk recommending amps anymore, since they WILL perform uncharacteristically in his system.

I've been spending my own money on hifi for 50 years, and I was once in your business, so I don't yield to anyone's "professional opinion" in this field, for it being professionally-derived, alone. I've been that professional, too. All that matters is what's causal regardless who identifies it. What I want to know is, if the TVC + REF75SE driving the nominally 8 ohms Devore via the OPT 8 ohm taps was successful, but the TVC + REF75SE driving the nominally 4 ohms YG via the OPT 4 ohm taps was unsuccessful even at modest SPL, why do you keep blaming the TVC? Clearly, the amp/speaker interface is the causal culprit here. The YG's more complex crossover (than Devore's simpler one) does not compromise the MSB DAC + TVC's ability to drive the input of the amp.

You can certainly continue to recommend Luxman + YG and stipulate an active preamp. It's your store. I will continue to recommend otherwise. I am confident that the Luxman driven by my TVC and lashed to crossoverless Zu speakers would perform just fine and sound quite good.

Phil

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . The YG's more complex crossover (than Devore's simpler one) does not compromise the MSB DAC + TVC's ability to drive the input of the amp.

. . .

Phil,

This is a very important and well put point (for you) / question (to me).

Keith,

Is this true?

Did the 160M sound normal and great when you used the MSB as the source?