KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search
- Thread starter KeithR
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Just thinking maybe a bit left field but perhaps something a bit Norse noir... the Hegel H30 (stereo or monos) might have fallen off the radar lately but was fairly exceptional value just a few years ago... and is very affordable second hand. Would mate really nicely with a great valve pre perhaps a super affordable MicroZotl reference preamp (which would also give you a tasty world class headphone amp as well) or maybe you reach up for a ref 10 or Gat 2.
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Congrats Keith. When I went to Alma this summer all they had were the Sonja 2's. I was amazed how good the sound was but they were above my pay grade. I wish he had the Hailey's at the time. Canary Audio is just down the road from you. You may want to give them a visit for amps. I purchased the Grand Reference 2's for my new system.
The first amps to try on the Hailey 2s will be the Ampzilla monos, designed by the late James Bongiorno:
https://www.sst.audio/ampzilla-1
They are quite reasonable, quite powerful, and allegedly warm, tube-like SS. In my journey so far, I feel YGs need 400 watts into 4 ohms minimum. Bongiorno also didn't believe in audiophile power cords, so they are welded in the chassis
I totally agree that YG speakers like juice !
After 4 months with the Sonja 2.3 and now 2 with the Sonja 2.2 , I am still in the "dark" regarding the preamp/amp choice .
Good luck in your quest . Might be even more challenging than the speakers ‘ choice !
Keith had ARC 160m monoblocks delivered with the YGs at the start of the trial. The combination was disastrous for both. The YG is a competent speaker for one that relies on crossovers and multiple drivers, but I couldn't give it that much on the basis of the effects obtained by the 160ms driving the YGs. Bass was anemic and not very disciplined. The top end was truncated. The combination did not handle crescendos well. And more than three simultaneous events in music material resulted in smearing of transients and poor distinctions between instruments and voices. Massed strings and / or voices were disturbing. The sound was unengaging and inauthentic. Had that been the sound attainable, I think Keith would have bought nothing at this point. By the time I got to hear this combination, he had already determined that his ARC REF75SE was already insufficient, which we verified again together. As much as the ARC-YG combination undermined confidence in the speakers, it did so equally for the amplifiers. The REF75SE was the answer to help the Devores sound acceptable and brought a modicum of coherence to that speaker, particularly on reining in the errant woofers. It was very clean in the mids and top. How could it sound so bad with YG and vice versa? The combination also had no dynamic life. It would get loud, but it couldn't jump.
Well, insufficient power for one, and insufficient grip. My experience in trying to get crossover-based speakers to sound reasonably coherent, lively and toneful (for people who own them) generally has led to the conclusion that more power is needed than the speaker efficiency rating leads one to expect. The YG is not my choice of speaker, but I had heard them enough to know that they could sound much better than what I was hearing in Keith's living room a week ago. The answer would not be a massive tube amp with massed pentodes. And if it was, it would almost certainly not work for Keith. So muscular solid state was called for.
I returned a day later with my backup amps, M2tech Crosby monoblocks. Bridged they are good for 440w each into 4 ohms. They are fast, show excellent control and lack the dryness of many Class D amps. I wired them up in place of the ARC m600 and it was quickly clear that the Crosby pair could establish a musically useful baseline for evaluating the YGs for purchase or rejection. Bass performance, the single best aspect of the YG in terms of being musically convincing, went from terrible to outstanding. The power and grip gave the speakers some of the best semblance of coherence I've heard from a crossover speaker. The difference was transformational. At that power and control level, the YG becomes a musically-credible speaker.
A Luxman m900u stereo amp was brought in later. There were some things Keith liked about that amp but like every Luxman I have ever heard or used, it sounded less dynamic and powerful than its rating. Top end was much less truncated than with the ARCs, but still a little soft. Bass was AWOL. Dynamics and jump were having a flu day. Some of the event-smearing returned. Keith thought the Luxman had exceptional texture delivery. 300/300 Luxman watts were just not enough, though the amplifier is magnificently made. It just needs a different speaker to shine.
The YG is exceedingly well-constructed and gets closer than most crossover/multi-drivers speakers to a holistic presentation. It is an engineered, not an artisanal, loudspeaker. It gets closer to authentic tone than most crossover speakers, too. If I had to go back to crossover speakers and was willing to pay the penalty of inefficiency, this YG would be on my short list. The Ampzilla 2000 2nd Edition is conservatively-rated for 540w into 4 ohms. It will do more while delivering a surprising blend of tonality, accuracy, dynamics and control. For someone like Keith who has committed to the YG, I am expecting the Bongiorno monoblocks to be a successful match.
Phil
Well, insufficient power for one, and insufficient grip. My experience in trying to get crossover-based speakers to sound reasonably coherent, lively and toneful (for people who own them) generally has led to the conclusion that more power is needed than the speaker efficiency rating leads one to expect. The YG is not my choice of speaker, but I had heard them enough to know that they could sound much better than what I was hearing in Keith's living room a week ago. The answer would not be a massive tube amp with massed pentodes. And if it was, it would almost certainly not work for Keith. So muscular solid state was called for.
I returned a day later with my backup amps, M2tech Crosby monoblocks. Bridged they are good for 440w each into 4 ohms. They are fast, show excellent control and lack the dryness of many Class D amps. I wired them up in place of the ARC m600 and it was quickly clear that the Crosby pair could establish a musically useful baseline for evaluating the YGs for purchase or rejection. Bass performance, the single best aspect of the YG in terms of being musically convincing, went from terrible to outstanding. The power and grip gave the speakers some of the best semblance of coherence I've heard from a crossover speaker. The difference was transformational. At that power and control level, the YG becomes a musically-credible speaker.
A Luxman m900u stereo amp was brought in later. There were some things Keith liked about that amp but like every Luxman I have ever heard or used, it sounded less dynamic and powerful than its rating. Top end was much less truncated than with the ARCs, but still a little soft. Bass was AWOL. Dynamics and jump were having a flu day. Some of the event-smearing returned. Keith thought the Luxman had exceptional texture delivery. 300/300 Luxman watts were just not enough, though the amplifier is magnificently made. It just needs a different speaker to shine.
The YG is exceedingly well-constructed and gets closer than most crossover/multi-drivers speakers to a holistic presentation. It is an engineered, not an artisanal, loudspeaker. It gets closer to authentic tone than most crossover speakers, too. If I had to go back to crossover speakers and was willing to pay the penalty of inefficiency, this YG would be on my short list. The Ampzilla 2000 2nd Edition is conservatively-rated for 540w into 4 ohms. It will do more while delivering a surprising blend of tonality, accuracy, dynamics and control. For someone like Keith who has committed to the YG, I am expecting the Bongiorno monoblocks to be a successful match.
Phil
I think important to mention that his music first passive preamp is zero gain. To actually understand what the Luxman and the AR are doing you will need to try other preamps.
It has to be said that Keith has a very, very peculiar set up, with a passive preamp AND long cables (among other things), which makes amplifiers perform uncharacteristically there in his system. I understand that particular setup worked wonders for his DeVore, but IMHO, it's not ideal for his new speakers.
I invite folks to come to the store to hear the Luxman and the ARC 160M on Sonja 2 (bigger than Hailey). They are not as described by 213Cobra in our systems, in a much, much larger space. As I made perfectly clear to Keith, both amps performed uncharacteristically in his system, and I can only think that's because of his unique setup.
Now, the LAMMs are a great match electrically to his passive pre, so hopefully Keith will score a pair and we'll get to the bottom of it, as I'm curious myself to hear LAMM on YG.
I invite folks to come to the store to hear the Luxman and the ARC 160M on Sonja 2 (bigger than Hailey). They are not as described by 213Cobra in our systems, in a much, much larger space. As I made perfectly clear to Keith, both amps performed uncharacteristically in his system, and I can only think that's because of his unique setup.
Now, the LAMMs are a great match electrically to his passive pre, so hopefully Keith will score a pair and we'll get to the bottom of it, as I'm curious myself to hear LAMM on YG.
From Rafe Arnott's report on our room at last year's THE Show, that featured Hailey 2 and Luxman m900, but with an Audio Research REF10 and different cabling:
https://www.audiostream.com/content...udio-impact-msb-technologies-and-yg-acoustics
"Add in no break-up to Plant’s gated-mic vocals and palpable texture to Page’s and Jone’s playing without slipping into distortion – a real feat for this recording at high volume in almost any system and I was pushed back into my seat with satisfaction. Midrange had slam and impact, with just the right amount of juice to make it chewy without becoming bubblegum.
Speed and attack on notes was worthy of the musical pace of this cut and with all the stereo panning going on, the sound stage is stretched wide and can be disparate, but here the cohesion remained unflappable."
More power would've been nice, but we clearly were reaching the room's ability to play loud (overexciting it) before we reached the amp's.
So, no, I don't agree you need 400W on Hailey At least not when used with an active preamp!
https://www.audiostream.com/content...udio-impact-msb-technologies-and-yg-acoustics
"Add in no break-up to Plant’s gated-mic vocals and palpable texture to Page’s and Jone’s playing without slipping into distortion – a real feat for this recording at high volume in almost any system and I was pushed back into my seat with satisfaction. Midrange had slam and impact, with just the right amount of juice to make it chewy without becoming bubblegum.
Speed and attack on notes was worthy of the musical pace of this cut and with all the stereo panning going on, the sound stage is stretched wide and can be disparate, but here the cohesion remained unflappable."
More power would've been nice, but we clearly were reaching the room's ability to play loud (overexciting it) before we reached the amp's.
So, no, I don't agree you need 400W on Hailey
At least not when used with an active preamp!Yeah, possibly. Most of the behavior was amp-speaker interface related. His REF75SE works great with the Devores and the TVC, but shows all the 160m problems as soon as it drives the YGs instead. So I'm unconvinced the TVC was the issue. As well, 6db gain can be switched in. In any case, he's committed to that Music First TVC so an amp has to work with it. -Phil
He has somewhat long line cables but he is running balanced. That isn't the source of the problem we were hearing. -Phil
From Rafe Arnott's report on our room at last year's THE Show, that featured Hailey 2 and Luxman m900, but with an Audio Research REF10 and different cabling:
https://www.audiostream.com/content...udio-impact-msb-technologies-and-yg-acoustics
"Add in no break-up to Plant’s gated-mic vocals and palpable texture to Page’s and Jone’s playing without slipping into distortion – a real feat for this recording at high volume in almost any system and I was pushed back into my seat with satisfaction. Midrange had slam and impact, with just the right amount of juice to make it chewy without becoming bubblegum.
Speed and attack on notes was worthy of the musical pace of this cut and with all the stereo panning going on, the sound stage is stretched wide and can be disparate, but here the cohesion remained unflappable."
More power would've been nice, but we clearly were reaching the room's ability to play loud (overexciting it) before we reached the amp's.
So, no, I don't agree you need 400W on Hailey
It's not the wattage alone. It is in the particular amp output/speaker input interface characteristics, and these vary widely in crossover-based speakers. With cleaner high power volumes, the room was not inducing the smearing. Now I think the M160 and the m900u are excellent amps in the right systems for them. It's no foul for a combination not to be optimal even if the individual components are otherwise excellent.
Phil
Did you read what I wrote? Same amp, same speaker, different preamp and cables. MUCH larger room. Result? Dynamics.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out the elephant in the room
Keith just needs an amplifier that's more compatible with his TVC preamp, that's all. Neither the Luxman nor the REF160 were. To me, that's all there is to it.
I agree. I am never a friend of passive preamp. I think he should borrow active preamp to try.Did you read what I wrote? Same amp, same speaker, different preamp and cables. MUCH larger room. Result? Dynamics.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out the elephant in the room
Keith just needs an amplifier that's more compatible with his TVC preamp, that's all. Neither the Luxman nor the REF160 were. To me, that's all there is to it.
I think there was a mismatch with the ARC 160m and the Music First TVC. The ARCs input sensitivity is only 2.4V (half the sensitivity of my Ref75SE even). However, the Luxman isn't at 1.2V and, in fact, Luxman manufactured a TVC for years themselves. Also, I'll add that two other listeners this past week soft clipped the amp at loud levels - that doesn't seem like a gain issue.
At THE Show last year, I mentioned that the combo lacked umph and dynamics and that I would prefer to have heard monoblocks. So Rafe may just not have the standard that Phil/I do being used to high efficiency speakers. But horses for courses.
I really like the Luxman amp - the warmth and texture were simply outstanding and, unlike Phil, I liked the gentle top end very much. But it just wasn't a great match for YG without monoblocks imo although people can make that judgment for themselves. Ironically, might be the perfect amp for DeVore.
That's your prerogative - my Music First has outperformed several active tube preamps. Anyways, I really love my preamp and it's not going anywhere.
I was scanning the thread to see if the very simple and dispositive issue about the low sensitivity of the ARC 160M input stage had yet been mentioned.
The subjective discussion about the sonic inadequacy of the ARC 160M is obviated by focusing on this objective specification. With double the number of tubes per channel compared to Keith's REF75SE, according to ARC specifications, the gain of the 160M exceeds the gain of the REF75SE by only .5dB. So with essentially the same gain, and with half the input sensitivity, it is predictable that the 160M will not sound as good on the YGs as even Keith's REF75SE.
The 160M's low input sensitivity (and where is what should be almost a 3dB increase in gain hiding?) should have made the 160M a nonstarter for Keith's application.
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Actually, it could be. It seems counter intuitive but insufficient gain from a phono preamp can cause early clipping on an amplifier.
What's the output capability of your phono, Keith?
I had been pressing Keith hard to consider the Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse Monos, which are very powerful hybrid and, I think, great-sounding amplifiers, and a relatively good value -- until I saw that their input sensitivity is 3.1 volts.
I, personally, think the issue significantly is the zero gain of the passive pre-amp, but Keith is keeping that component, so the gain equation must be solved some other way.
There is no point in trying to litigate the passive pre-amp issue with Keith, so don't bother trying. He loves that component, and you must respect that.
I, personally, think the issue significantly is the zero gain of the passive pre-amp, but Keith is keeping that component, so the gain equation must be solved some other way.
There is no point in trying to litigate the passive pre-amp issue with Keith, so don't bother trying. He loves that component, and you must respect that.
Did you read what I wrote? Same amp, same speaker, different preamp and cables. MUCH larger room. Result? Dynamics.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out the elephant in the room
Keith just needs an amplifier that's more compatible with his TVC preamp, that's all. Neither the Luxman nor the REF160 were. To me, that's all there is to it.
While I agree a larger room can result in a different / better outcome, I do not believe that is the limiting nor causal factor in the case of what we heard with these various amps.
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