KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

Ron Resnick

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Orangutans? Gibbons? You sure like to monkey around!

Thank you very much for this very interesting report! This is kind of a silly question since it obviously has no good (or even possible) answer, but (why let silliness or impossibility deter me?) how can you be reasonably confident that the sonic differences you are describing between the speakers are not, at least partly, actually attributable to the different amplifiers?

If you are committed to having a definitive and valid personal answer on this journey I really think we are going to need to figure out how to set up a demo with high power solid-state amplifiers on Rockport Cygnus or Avior. Besides if you ultimately like Rockport then a used Gryphon amplifier might very well be your final, high-power amplifier. (If Gryphon is good enough for Andy Payor then it has to be good enough for me to endorse it for you. :D)

PS: I like the midrange - tweeter - midrange configuration of those YGs. Rockport adopted the same configuration when moving from the Altair II to the Lyra.
 
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DaveyF

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Keith, it’s going to be pretty hard to beat the YG’s. Horns are a different kettle of fish, if you are interested in dynamic portrayal above all else, then these should very well be to your liking.
Ron brought up an interesting question, if you are open to a high powered ss amp ( and that is going to mean one that is pretty pricey...usually) then maybe a listen to various speakers that your current ARC cannot drive well, would be in order.
 

JackD201

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Curious that despite Keith's reluctance with metal tweeters, his three listed faves all had "metal" as the HF diaphragm material be they cone or ribbon.

Is there something in your space or system that makes them non-starters for you Keith?
 

awsmone

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Lois Desjardin who has set up YG a lot at shows recommended the Harley over the Sonya unless you had a really big room , and new how to set them up, which he said wasn’t easy.
when I heard Lois set them up, I never thought them bright , and was surprised at the velvety midrange with Dean Martins voice

Your choice of amplifier will be critical with such a revealing speaker

View attachment 47222
 

Mdp632

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YG's proprietary Dual Coherent Cross Over is the secret sauce so to say that gave you that unique listening experience over the Wilsons.
 

Bodhi

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In a small or small-medium size room, the Cube Audio Nenuphar speakers are worth a look @$15k. PB raved about them on AV Showrooms. They dig pretty deep for a full range point source speaker. I'm auditioning a pair in the next month or so when they land with a friend & will post up a report fyi.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Bodhi, after his owning a couple of models of Zus and moving past them, I suspect Keith might not be that interested in full range driver spkrs anymore.

They prob appeal more to me, but I suspect my 800 sq ft room is too big for them.
 
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KeithR

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Thank you very much for this very interesting report! This is kind of a silly question since it obviously has no good (or even possible) answer, but (why let silliness or impossibility deter me?) how can you be reasonably confident that the sonic differences you are describing between the speakers are not, at least partly, actually attributable to the different amplifiers?

There really isn't a good answer - although I feel a Ref 250SE would have allowed me to try tubes on both speakers. Asiufy also recommended not to use the 160s on the Sonjas.

The meters were going past 100w on the Dagostinos with the Sonjas on certain tracks, while the Wilsons were hardly tasking the 160ms at all. I was listening mostly in the low-80s, so not particularly loud during this session.

Ron brought up an interesting question, if you are open to a high powered ss amp ( and that is going to mean one that is pretty pricey...usually) then maybe a listen to various speakers that your current ARC cannot drive well, would be in order.

To be totally honest Davey (and Ron) - I haven't decided if I'm open to this.
 

Bodhi

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@spiritofmusic They're a new speaker, so i'm keeping an open mind. As PB said "These are a horse of a different color". The neodymium magnets in those speakers are capable of achieving 2.4 tesla in the magnetic gap which is phenomenal!
 
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asiufy

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There really isn't a good answer - although I feel a Ref 250SE would have allowed me to try tubes on both speakers. Asiufy also recommended not to use the 160s on the Sonjas.

The meters were going past 100w on the Dagostinos with the Sonjas on certain tracks, while the Wilsons were hardly tasking the 160ms at all. I was listening mostly in the low-80s, so not particularly loud during this session.

In our fairly large room, I felt the Audio Research 160M wouldn't do on the YGs what Keith expected of them.
In a more common sized room, like Keith's, they'd be great.
 

KeithR

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Curious that despite Keith's reluctance with metal tweeters, his three listed faves all had "metal" as the HF diaphragm material be they cone or ribbon.

Is there something in your space or system that makes them non-starters for you Keith?

I assume you are talking about Trios, Sonja XVs, or the big boy EAs? I won't ever spend 6 figures on a speaker nor have the massive room required to entertain the idea.
 

morricab

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I get a chuckle that folks keep recommending the Orangutans....as I actually picked the Gibbon X over them. Just a more modern sound with better bass in my view that is more aligned with my music preferences. And since super low powered amps aren't my cup of tea, the Xs were a perfect decision three years ago.

But moving onward to the big Wilson vs. YG demo (at SoCal dealer Alma Music & Audio in SD)

First, this is a large room folks - like 30' x 20' at least. The Sonjas might have been at an advantage probably just based on that as the Alexia 2 is more likely the perfect speaker for that room. However, the Sasha DAW wasn't impotent in the bass or anything. I auditioned the Sasha DAW and Sonja on digital only - MSB Reference dac w/ passive preamp module directly to ARC Ref 160m amps. I'm an ARC fan with my Ref 75SE so its a sound I like (modern ARC, not ss-ARC from the 80s-10s). And it would naturally be what I would want to consider with the Wilson. On the Sonja, I had the Dagostino Momentums inserted - and before everyone goes crazy, this is totally the right thing to do because:

1) I have heard the 160s on YG before while demoing MSB options and felt they needed more power/current
2) with YG I would be purchasing an SS amp, likely high power as discussed earlier in the thread, as large power tubes aren't for me

Both speakers were placed in positions optimized for their respective designs (ported vs sealed bass, etc).

The Sasha DAWs had a very nice, warm sound as evidenced on Jason Isbell, Blake Mills, and other such americana tracks that I demo with. Instruments really had a nice weight to them on strings and guitars in particular and played well in space. I did find the overall sound however somewhat subdued and lacking sparkle on cymbals (see Dzihan and Kamien's "Stiff Jazz"). I felt that while the bass was improved over previous Wilson designs, it was still a bit muddy in the upper bass region - I also heard this before at a different dealer. But what *was* good was that I didn't hear boominess like previous Wilsons. Bass seemed definitely a step up from my Devores at home in my room and articulation was decent, but not near what the Rockport demonstrated ported bass could do. Dynamics and soundstage are traditional Wilson hallmarks - and on the first point, seemed excellent in my audition. Soundstage was good, although as we shall see - nowhere near what the YG could do in the same room - it was definitely more "in between" the speakers (although certainly not small) but height seemed good. Coherency is definitely much better than prior Wilsons as i heard in my first Sasha DAW demo, although despite dynamics and tone, I still feel the Wilson is a slightly mechanical sounding speaker on electronica or even on simple piano music, which while timbre seemed nice - it just didn't feel quite right. (if you go hear a pair of 3.7s you'll understand, and, recall I've owned full range driver speakers for 6.5 years so have quite a lot of experience).

Turning to the YG was interesting - as I expected the contrast was going to be with a much brighter speaker and I didn't get that at all. I had the Carmel 2 in my room in fact and the tweeter could be a hair harsh on certain material. Not so with the new Sonja! In fact, the speakers totally disappeared in the soundstage and the continuousness and flow in the midrange was just sublime with excellent decay. Electronica was enveloping as it should be, but also with a very "alive" quality. Ironically, my Devores do something similar on the musical genre (and neither YG, Gamut, nor Devore use internal stuffing/cabinet deadening). The Sonja was smooth sounding without a hint of brightness. Your mind just totally relaxed into whatever music was being played. While I didn't really focus on transparency the entire audition, I subsequently did feel a lens had just been removed from the soundstage - but not in the traditional "i can hear a pin drop in seat 3, row 4 of the orchestra" sense. In fact, I didn't focus on detail my entire demo. On my piano torture track, the YG just seemed clear with no discontinuities or emphasis on parts of the frequency curve and didn't feel mechanical at all. I began to wonder if YGs superior on/off axis performance and unique crossover design was the culprit? Dynamics were a shade lower than the Wilson - particularly micro dynamics on Andrew Bird violin plucking - which I anticipated. I also like sealed bass from my Zu days and this was no different - just taut and articulate as hell on my string bass tracks.

So as you might expect, the YG was a superior sound to my ears on that day - and considerably more expensive. I am looking forward to hearing the Hailey 2 next month to see if it replicates the enveloping sound of my Sonja audition. The Hailey 2 is also $10k more than the Sasha, so it still represents a steep premium. Coming back to the Gibbon Xs, I don't feel the Wilsons are an actionable improvement but that YG was definitely a jump to a different level that requires a significant amplifier investment (and possible system reconfiguration which i just optimized a year ago) and will likely be less dynamic. I plan on evaluating dynamics more closely in my next audition but both speakers seemed more dynamic than the Rockport (which I still feel was underpowered and would like to revisit with a different amp).

Next installment will be in a totally different arena: horns :cool:
Interesting stuff Keith. I don’t think I can live with a speaker knowing it is lacking in dynamics. However, it sounds as if the Wilsons are still, in your opinion, a bit too strongly flavored...if I read you right.

I have heard YG a number of times and the last time I heard them was the best. However, they still don’t “pop” like a good high sensitivity speaker.

Now you will audition the Wagner? I am quite sure you will find it TOTALLY different from these two . And contrary to the others an amp with a not very high damping factor is strongly preferred. Why? A horn bass will already have all the damping one needs...no need for the amp to “control” the woofer. Any attempt to do so will overdamp the bass and it will be MIA.

I think you will like the speed, transparency and dynamics, I am not sure about the tonal balance, which will probably be lighter than your other demos. Mids and highs should have better flow but this also depends on the electronics.

Looking forward to your ongoing impressions.
 
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KeithR

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Now you will audition the Wagner? I am quite sure you will find it TOTALLY different from these two . And contrary to the others an amp with a not very high damping factor is strongly preferred. Why? A horn bass will already have all the damping one needs...no need for the amp to “control” the woofer. Any attempt to do so will overdamp the bass and it will be MIA.

Thanks Brad - my ARC has a damping factor of 8, so not exactly high. But I can't take crappy SET bass anyways - so PP would be my only path.

In the past, I left 101db FRD speaker land for a more neutral, natural sound - resulting in my 92db speakers currently. So dynamics aren't always my top priority. But yes, you probably need 3-400 watts on the YG to get them optimal as I mentioned in my audition notes.
 

morricab

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Thanks Brad - my ARC has a damping factor of 8, so not exactly high. But I can't take crappy SET bass anyways - so PP would be my only path.

In the past, I left 101db FRD speaker land for a more neutral, natural sound - resulting in my 92db speakers currently. So dynamics aren't always my top priority. But yes, you probably need 3-400 watts on the YG to get them optimal as I mentioned in my audition notes.
I won't debate with you but I would take the bass from Aries Cerat and a few other SETS (KR and NAT come to mind) over any amp I have heard...SS or PP tube...this is one of the stranger positions you have adopted, IMO, that all SETs have crappy bass.
 

KeithR

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I won't debate with you but I would take the bass from Aries Cerat and a few other SETS (KR and NAT come to mind) over any amp I have heard...SS or PP tube...this is one of the stranger positions you have adopted, IMO, that all SETs have crappy bass.

I have quite a bit of amp experience to say that, but let's keep the thread focused on the speaker task at hand. My only point is that my current amp shouldn't be a limiting factor with horn bass - do you agree?
 

Folsom

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Horns are not dampers, if they were then high QTS drivers would work in them. They generally need decently dampened drivers to work right (lowish QTS). This is because the horn isn’t a damper, that you need control in the driver so that it isn’t too sloppy or to tight - given that the amplifier can’t apply feedback (damping) in a way where it works with horns. Basically horns don’t make sense to an amplifiers feedback circuit because it can only read the driver, not the actual output of the horn.
 
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PeterA

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I might be a bit biased, but I haven't found a better speaker for a medium size room <$50k than the Magico S5 Mk2 + SPods. I previously owned S5 Mk1's which are good, but the Mk2 is an order of magnitude better and is a very 'complete' speaker. They use the exact same midrange drivers as the M3 (Part No: MAG6004RTC), which is an improved version of the midrange in the MPro. It is just a very well balanced, resolving, yet musical loudspeaker & is a great "allrounder" which handles all genres of music with equal aplomb. The best amps for synergy i've found are Vitus Signature series, Soulution, Boulder 1100 series, CH Precision, Audia Flight Strumento series & large tube mono's such as CAT, CJ & VAC. Pass Labs is another popular choice.

I heard the S5 Mk2 with CJ monos at Myles Astor's place in NYC. Very convincing presentation.

I would think the new M2 might be a very interesting option around $50K. Can't believe I said that because that is a heck of a lot of money.
 
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morricab

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I have quite a bit of amp experience to say that, but let's keep the thread focused on the speaker task at hand. My only point is that my current amp shouldn't be a limiting factor with horn bass - do you agree?
I have had a couple PP tube amps that worked pretty well with my horns so it shouldn’t be a showstopper.
 

DaveC

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If you're actually considering YG and the big amp it needs maybe a used pair of TAD R1s would be worth considering too? They have more driver surface area vs YG and IMO are better at dynamics, have excellent bass, and the Be coax driver is one of the best mid/tweet drivers in the world.
 

Rob181

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If you're actually considering YG and the big amp it needs maybe a used pair of TAD R1s would be worth considering too? They have more driver surface area vs YG and IMO are better at dynamics, have excellent bass, and the Be coax driver is one of the best mid/tweet drivers in the world.

As a matter of interest - what speaker amp combination are you running
 

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