KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[Folsom]

Can you describe what you hear from Harbeth?

 

[bazelio]

Wamth and veil from distortion caused by cabinet resonance.

 

[bonzo75]

+1 to horns lacking clarity and detail. Super dynamic, lackluster on detail... IME.

Also +1 to cabinet resonances being a primary association with boxy sound. Think: Harbeth.

Which horns are you using to make the conclusion they lack clarity?

 

[morricab]

Stereo speakers only manage to move a source point between the two speakers playing with relative intensity, manipulating the phase sound engineers manage to create a rough 2D map. However, very few recordings have enough natural phase information to create a soundstage developing physically freely in the room. Most of the time it is our brain that re-builts the soundstage, using minimal clues, such as microdetails and decays, and our own experience of placement of sources in the real world.

I remember reading psycho-acoustic tests where listeners were asked to draw a map of the instruments of a recording of a chamber orchestra playing Mozart wind serenades. Although most listeners would consider that soundstage delineation was excellent, their maps showed many times a strong disagreement with the real positions, but also with other listener maps.

Electronics or speakers coloration will surely affect localization, as they change the microdetail and decay maps, but can add envelopment and enjoyment. IMHE the Quad ESL63, properly positioned and amplified, has the best localization properties of any speaker I have owned.

On the other hand, I can immediately in many cases when left and right channels are swapped...it creates in me a cognitive dissonance that it clearly doesn’t cause in many people (because they didn’t catch it and I did...sometimes in systems that have been like that for years). My check is usually string quartet where the overwhelming convention is violin, violin, viola and cello from left to right. Or a record designed for setup if available. Caught many systems reversing left and right over the years...

 

[morricab]

Yes, the ear-brain system - as Kant would say, concepts without percepts are empty, percepts without concepts are blind.

Localization by sound is an ancient skill ... when the twig snaps behind you... . Then based on our experience - the concert master is always near the conductor, the conductor is usually in the middle, basses are far right, etc, etc. - we build the 'picture's in our mind's ear. But the 'input data' drives, so I wouldn't say "re-builds".

Observing myself in the concert hall, I find I do not do what I do in front of my stereo. Instead it is my brain connecting site and sound, the oboe player with the oboe sound

If you watch a concert video you will do similar...this is why surround sound systems will sound very immersive with videos but artificial (to me) with music. Your visual centers are helping a lot.

 

[morricab]

+1 to horns lacking clarity and detail. Super dynamic, lackluster on detail... IME.

Also +1 to cabinet resonances being a primary association with boxy sound. Think: Harbeth.

Who was saying that horns lack clarity and detail that you are +1ing? This is not a true statement anymore than it is true for other tech.

 

[bonzo75]

On the other hand, I can immediately in many cases when left and right channels are swapped...it creates in me a cognitive dissonance that it clearly doesn’t cause in many people (because they didn’t catch it and I did...sometimes in systems that have been like that for years). My check is usually string quartet where the overwhelming convention is violin, violin, viola and cello from left to right. Or a record designed for setup if available. Caught many systems reversing left and right over the years...

Reversing left and right is quite common at shows. The violin or brass gives it away instantly.

 

[morricab]

Reversing left and right is quite common at shows. The violin or brass gives it away instantly.

I will hear it also with singers where the voice is centered. I will feel uneasy and ask the owner of the system if he has confirmed left and right...they always say "yes, yes" , then we check with an appropriate recording....

 

[morricab]

Sorry if it came across that way, but that wasn’t the case - in fact I really liked them. I’m just commenting that I might prefer an amp a hair warmer than the Nagra or a different 300b tube.

Speaker/amp synergy is a big deal to me. ARC with Devore is perfectly balanced, just like I preferred Dart with Zu over warmer Audion and other combos. There was nothing wrong with tonality in my demo.

Also, to Al M- I don’t find horn coloration related to warmth. It’s hooded sound and lack of clarity.

So, bottom line, Keith, do you find the Avantgarde Duo XDs a significant upgrade over the Devores? Sounds like you do.

Now comes the amp question. I have heard Duo XDs with SS amps and it is not a sound I could live with, very forward, aggressive and not a hint of warmth. Dart would not work...maybe Vitus or old BAT VK200, which are definitely warmish. Maybe a Pass SIT. For tubes I think you will find the high frequencies, now laid bare, will not show the ARC amp in the best light. Just my opinion of course but based on a fair amount of experience now dealing with horns and compression drivers. What I am finding that is working good on my DIY horn project is a small push/pull Class A triode amp (EL84s wired in triode for a whopping 5 watts)...it is not quite as good sounding as the EL34 SEP amp from Mastersound but it is a lot quieter so I am using in direct drive (I have active crossovers) on the 110db horn driver. Something like this would work nicely with a Duo. There are a couple of nice 2A3 PP amps out there that could do the trick and give you around 15 watts...more than enough for a Duo, which is like 107db/watt I think. Of course, 2 or 3 watts is enough and then you could go with a really nice low powered SET and since the bass is covered other ways no worries about overly stressing the little guys.

I have heard several good Duo demos but all were with SET or Class A PP triode. Anything with Avantgardes own SS amps was not pretty at all.

 

[tima]

On the other hand, I can immediately in many cases when left and right channels are swapped...it creates in me a cognitive dissonance that it clearly doesn’t cause in many people (because they didn’t catch it and I did...sometimes in systems that have been like that for years). My check is usually string quartet where the overwhelming convention is violin, violin, viola and cello from left to right. Or a record designed for setup if available. Caught many systems reversing left and right over the years...

Me too. 'Whoa that's not right' - It's almost immediate. Same with out of phase.

It helps for cable makers to adopt some convention - red is right, white/black is left, at least for RCAs. Electronics seem to be split - are you looking over the top of the component at the back, or are you looking directly at the back. Janet - there should be standards. ;->

 

[spiritofmusic]

Brad, Keith would have had the opportunity to hear exemplary 45 tubes at Blue58, and critically, a fully-dialled in, coherent sound. Another data point alongside the XD/Nagra demo.

 

[tima]

Reversing left and right is quite common at shows. The violin or brass gives it away instantly.

Usually ... I'd say violins and basses. While trumpets, trombones, baritones, tubas etc. are often back right, horns get moved around, more often on the left, but not always.

 

[morricab]

Brad, Keith would have had the opportunity to hear exemplary 45 tubes at Blue58, and critically, a fully-dialled in, coherent sound. Another data point alongside the XD/Nagra demo.

For sure, but I guess Keith just didn’t have the time.

 

[bonzo75]

Usually ... I'd say violins and basses. While trumpets, trombones, baritones, tubas etc. are often back right, horns get moved around, more often on the left, but not always.

You will be surprised how many conductors mix the bass section with the violins at barbican, it is not always left and right. YouTube Haitink with the LSO to see an example.

However with key recordings I have for audition that is not the case and it is left and right. Since violin is on right and trumpet/trombone/tuba is on the right, that is quickest for me to pick. For example, Bydlo starts with tuba and scheherazade 4th movement starts with violin.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

You will be surprised how many conductors mix the bass section with the violins at barbican, it is not always left and right. YouTube Haitink with the LSO to see an example.

However with key recordings I have for audition that is not the case and it is left and right. Since violin is on right and trumpet/trombone/tuba is on the right, that is quickest for me to pick. For example, Bydlo starts with tuba and scheherazade 4th movement starts with violin.

Violins are almost always on the left.

 

[bonzo75]

Violins are almost always on the left.

The standard format is violins on left and cellos and double bass and on right. Some conductors for certain performances mix it up with cells and double bass mixed with the violins. The first and second violin will still be on the left. The cello double bass instead of sitting sideways to the audience opposite the violin will sit facing the audience on the left and to the right, some next to the violinists.

 

[bonzo75]

Violins are almost always on the left.

Watch minute 15 to 16

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Watch minute 15 to 16

Highly unusual but interesting.

 

[bonzo75]

Highly unusual but interesting.

This happens often now.

This is an old shit pic I randomly dug out from my phone.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

This happens often now.

This is an old shit pic I randomly dug out from my phone.

View attachment 55081

I liked the effect it had with the cellos in the Bruckner