KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

morricab

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This has been brought up a few times. I agree with Ron.

One thing I'd add is with a good horn (without obvious coloration) the effect is only noticeable on vocals because that's what we're most sensitive to. On anything else you can't tell, unless maybe you're a musician and intimately familiar with the sound of your instrument and you hear it played back via a horn vs a top end dynamic speaker right next to one another. Otherwise it's too slight to pick up on, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

morricab, one way to tell if your 18S horn is truly not doing anything audible would be to coat it in plastidip. You can peel it off easily if you don't like it, but I'd be willing to bet it'll be easily audible. I think there's no possible way the horn isn't contributing to the sound you hear. In fact, I think just coating or damping the backside of the horn with string caulk or something will be easily audible.
I plan on damping the backside...will let you know how it sounds.
 

morricab

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Please show me where I said (wrote) “not being able to live with it.” I never wrote any such thing.

I am splitting hairs, and you are breaking chairs. The transparency difference I am sldescribing is small, picky and cosmopolitan. Only because I love vocals, and only because I happen to be sensitive to this particular attribute that I happen to perceive — even in my own case I find the transparency difference with the Zetas to be “tiny” — as I wrote.
It only took a straw to break the camel’s back! But my bad if I overstated your intent...
 

KeithR

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Avantgarde Duo XDs-

My speaker journey continues – originally, I wanted to demo Cessaro horns but through a host of issues ended up hearing Tune Audio horns instead at a recent hifi show. While they weren’t my cup of tea due to horn coloration and lack of bass, I was encouraged by the dynamics and soundstage they presented. Therefore I decided to search out an Avantgarde demo – which blends a horn with active bass module with in-house DSP vs the other two brands. The mid-range horn is typically crossed over at quite a low 170hz.

As it turns out, a London AG dealer had a pair and I procured a demo last week while on holiday. The Duo XD horns are gorgeous in person – despite their much larger size than in the photos. While aesthetics isn’t important for some, it is necessary for me as my speakers are an integral part of a living room vs. a man cave. The soft blue looked great and better than the sharper blue of AGs of yesteryear – I would love to see the bronze version as well. They were setup pretty near the corners and only about 6” from the wall in a 14x18’ room that had some angles in the corners so wasn’t quite symmetrical. The dealer had optimized settings for this room with a +3 bass push and 30hz higher crossover point than normal. He told me this was the best AG had sounded since they became a dealer in October of last year and they had spent the past 24 hours dialing them in more.

I usually ask for the dealer to put on a few cuts so I can adjust to the speakers before playing my reference tracks. We started off with some simple Miles Davis “So What.” The Siltech preamp and Nagra 300p amplifier were used with a Nagra HD dac and Aurender streamer. I soon moved on to streaming my music, starting off with Jason Isbell and Johnny Cash male vocals with a keen ear on horn coloration. I couldn’t hear any, so we were off to a good start. What I did hear was excellent presence – vocals were appropriately sized still, but took good shape in front off me (and weren’t hanging/dripping as some SET amps like to do and was the case in my Tune Audio demo). The amp/speaker combination was quite neutral – in fact, after a bunch of similar cuts from Christian McBride to Andrew Bird, I quipped that a hair more warmth/texture would be ideal. I note now, that the JJ 300bs are known to be lean in the upper midrange but with excellent bass. What I did find that tonality was very sweet on some Max Richter and other related violins- the highs were clearly not sibilant which was another horn worry I had.

Next I went through my classical and electronica arsenal – I was entirely surprised. There has been a lot of conversation on this thread that horns suck for rock and electronica. Well, they don’t. Instead a nice soundstage was presented with instruments that really popped off the landscape. I actually reached for more electronica than normal with Air, etc as these speakers were really compelling on the genre. Small sounds in the cuts really pop, the sound was extremely enveloping, and I got deep, tight bass that wasn’t staring at me from the floor like with a Martin Logan. I did notice that certain instruments were more on the horn or that they didn’t disappear like my Devores – however, this was effectively countered by the micro dynamics. You really didn’t care as much as instruments were freed from the speaker. This was particularly noticeable on Natalia Lafourcade cuts that I use with guitars that really project forward. I have a sneaky feeling that having the horns 3’ from the rear wall would be much better despite horn fans saying it isn’t. Overall I came into the audition expecting a small sound stage, but did not find that to be the case. I do think you trade some depth for dynamics however.

Sound was big, open, and dynamic. There was a “liveness” in the soundstage that was very compelling. I’m assuming this is due to the extreme sensitivity of the speakers. I will say that on my Explosions in the Sky “wailing guitar” track with tons of distortion pedals involved that there was some harshness. I left wondering if that was actually on the recording, that other speakers are kinder to it, or that this was the JJ tubes. What I can say is that Avantgardes are not going to like a dead neutral amplifier or SS in general. I just think they need a warm of neutral amp (like a YG ironically). Flow never seemed to bother me either – and on horns, that leading edge can be so fast that they require an amplifier that does proper decay like the Nagra. On strings, you really felt the undulation of the bowing project.

Speaking of flow, let’s talk about coherency. The issue with AGs since the beginning is the horns are too fast for the paper bass woofers – and therefore you can hear the handoff. Well I am happy to report that I tried my darndest on several brutal cuts (solo piano, string bass, etc) and couldn’t hear it. This was encouraging and I feel the XD technology makes the difference here. I will say that the bass may have been a hair much for that room, but I typically like a bit shelved down low end these days. The beauty of an active speaker (like I had with Zu) is that’s easy to accomplish. AG has many more settings than a traditional subwoofer from what I’ve been told – and you send in your room acoustics from a microphone kit and they will send back a recommended setting list.

So where does that leave the AG? If one wants a pinpoint imaging, totally disappearing speaker, with razor-like detail then this isn’t one’s speaker at all. But if enveloping sound that has a live element is your thing the Duo XD is hard to beat. I texted my friend @jeffrey_t after that they “sounded pretty rad” if you guys want the unofficial reaction. Will this replace the Devore? I have not made an official decision as I’d like to come back to my room and do more listening after this experience (my ARC has been in the shop to replace a light and receive back today). I can say if I decide to upgrade that I am inclined to go in this direction. I do think AGs are finicky with amps, so there is some work to do on that front.
 
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Folsom

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Pretty curious how coming back to you stereo will be!

Soundstage width isn’t an issue for horns necessarily, but as noted depth is simply different because you don’t have a wide spectrum reflecting back, that hit everything behind the speakers.

I will not be surprised if you commit to some AGs, but I will ask, Mezzo?
 

KeithR

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I will not be surprised if you commit to some AGs, but I will ask, Mezzo?

No, I've heard the premium isn't worth it for what is essentially a big wave guide and not a true bass horn.

I should also add that more toe-in might help the soundstage but I didn't ask them to do it.
 

Folsom

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The only thing the shape can do is help the mid mix with the bass, as it’ll make the bass slightly directional if its around 1.2-1.5ft on each side. Worth it? I’d take the word of anyone that had heard both, and not stress on it.

I think it’s possible to get exceptional resolution off of them. It’ll be part of the journey.
 

PeterA

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No, I've heard the premium isn't worth it for what is essentially a big wave guide and not a true bass horn.

I should also add that more toe-in might help the soundstage but I didn't ask them to do it.

Keith I asked that question about setting up horns in a room and surprisingly to me there was almost no response to my post and someone said they don’t react to the room like cone box speakers do.

What makes you think toeing in the speaker will affect the tone or frequency balance? Is that the case with these horn speakers?
 

Mark Seaton

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Sherlock Holmes himself would not be able to find any instance in which I have used the expression “cupped hands.” I describe my issue with the way horn loudspeakers reproduce vocals in the terms of “transparency” and “in-the-room presence.”

I don’t know if this is the same sonic issue as the “cupped hands” issue. Even with Jeroen’s Cessaro Zetas, which I loved, I still perceived a tiny bit less transparency and in-the-room presence on vocals than I hear with electrostatic or ribbon speakers.

As I have written several times if my primary musical interest were jazz, or jazz and classical, the Zetas would be my favorite loudspeakers.

While there is a wide range of variation in horns due to the huge effect the horn shape and size has on how sound is sprayed into the room, all horns will have significantly different sound radiation from that of a simple dome & small mid or vs a panel type speaker. While the direct sound to our ears is a dominant part, once inside any real room the differences of what hits the side and front walls will always make for a different interaction with the space. I have little question this is a significant part of what you identify as unique. Most certainly many other qualities matter, but realize that a horn with relatively straight sides and constant angles (until any flaring at the mouth/opening), vs a horn which starts narrow near the driver and flares out very wide will interact very differently in a room, especially with spaciousness and soundstage dimensions and subjective placement.

The point here is to be very conscious of very different shape and size horns to not dismiss too quickly as similar. Combine that shape with different driver types and design approaches and you can end up with some very different personalities between different horn speakers.
 

Mark Seaton

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Keith I asked that question about setting up horns in a room and surprisingly to me there was almost no response to my post and someone said they don’t react to the room like cone box speakers do.

What makes you think toeing in the speaker will affect the tone or frequency balance? Is that the case with these horn speakers?

While toe will have very noticeable effects on many speakers, the cut off in sound as you move beyond the ideal window of a horn can be more dramatic. Depending on the angles to the first reflection points, simple toe in changes can make bigger differences to the balance of sound that hits either first side wall reflection point. The closer the speakers are to side walls, the more this can change the perceived balance. Different profile (shape) horns result in different changes as you move further off axis. Some drop off more evenly above some frequency, some very gradually become narrower at the highest frequencies, and some narrow more quickly above some higher frequency. In the case of perfectly round or symmetrical horns, there can also be some differences in sound in a narrow area directly on axis, where a little toe in or out can make a noticeable change. Of course if you are listening far enough off axis for a horn that's very narrow at the throat near the driver, toe in can result in a subtle taper to the very top end. It's often enlightening and useful to quickly put some pink noise through a speaker and slowly move off axis toward 90 deg and listen to what happens over what angle.
 
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Ron Resnick

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Keith,

Thank you for that very interesting report!

Ever since the AG people at the AG factory admonished me sternly that nothing is to be gained from pulling their AG Trios a little bit or a lot into the room and away from being literally up against the front wall I have been puzzled about this reluctance to pull horn speakers into the room.

Many horn people say that you cannot generate by pulling horn speakers into the room the sonic depth you can generate by pulling box and planar speakers into the room. I don’t understand it, but I have never myself experimented with this with horn speakers
 
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Blue58

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No, I've heard the premium isn't worth it for what is essentially a big wave guide and not a true bass horn.

I should also add that more toe-in might help the soundstage but I didn't ask them to do it.
Great write up above Keith and it sure sounds like you had a fun time.
AGs do react quite strongly to toe in imo and the centre focus or width can be tuned to ones ear. I particularly prefer a strong central image for my choice of music which is almost identical to yours.
Now I’ve heard the Mezzo are a big step up and the price difference isn’t really that great if your budget allows. I’d seriously consider them.
Oh, and yes, many setups have the bass too high, it’s simply not necessary.
Are they finicky with amps choice? Perhaps avoid SS and cuddly tube amps, you want resolution, musicality and low noise. Power not required.
Enjoy your continued quest for your dream speaker.
Blue58
 

Folsom

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Keith,

Thank you for that very interesting report!

Ever since the AG people at the AG factory admonished me sternly that nothing is to be gained from pulling their AG Trios a little bit or a lot into the room and away from being literally up against the front wall I have been puzzled about this reluctance to pull horn speakers into the room.

Many horn people say that you cannot generate by pulling horn speakers into the room the sonic depth you can generate by pulling box and planar speakers into the room. I don’t understand it, but I have never myself experimented with this with horn speakers

Ron, here's what regular speakers tend to be like Please note that the stuff behind the speakers is fairly bright. This isn't a perfect representation. And if there was a wall the reflections would be much earlier.

nothorn.png

Here's what horns look like. Please note the volume of what's behind the speakers is very low by comparison (and may be nothing in real life with speakers). In this example the horns would be much more sensitive, since the sources have the same intensity in both simulations, and as you can see the sound in concentrated forward. But also you might see how the waves could potentially mix in such ways of the throat, as to cause the effect you note on singer's voices.

horns.png
 

Ron Resnick

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Interesting. Thank you.

So you are showing us this for the proposition that there is very little sonic information being generated or reflected behind the horn speaker?
 
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Folsom

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Interesting,. Thank you.

So you are showing us this for the proposition that there is very little sonic information being generated or reflected behind the horn speaker?

Correct. It may be as low as zero. You can get say a reflection from the wall behind you, back to the forward wall, and then back again; but it'll have lost most of the volume, definition, and be so out of time that it's just not significant enough to mean anything.

So when AG says some of their speakers can be pinned against a wall, they're telling the truth. What doesn't necessarily work for someone is the illusion of a band being up against a wall. It may be much more "believable" to pull the band into the room a bit, for those that listen for that sensation.

It really depends on the throat size and frequencies as to how much goes backwards. There are plenty of horns that send a good amount back, but some may be in chosen frequency ranges that aren't offensive/are additive to the experience. There's a variety of reasons for using horns, and hence there can be a variety of actual directivity.
 

morricab

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Avantgarde Duo XDs-

My speaker journey continues – originally, I wanted to demo Cessaro horns but through a host of issues ended up hearing Tune Audio horns instead at a recent hifi show. While they weren’t my cup of tea due to horn coloration and lack of bass, I was encouraged by the dynamics and soundstage they presented. Therefore I decided to search out an Avantgarde demo – which blends a horn with active bass module with in-house DSP vs the other two brands. The mid-range horn is typically crossed over at quite a low 170hz.

As it turns out, a London AG dealer had a pair and I procured a demo last week while on holiday. The Duo XD horns are gorgeous in person – despite their much larger size than in the photos. While aesthetics isn’t important for some, it is necessary for me as my speakers are an integral part of a living room vs. a man cave. The soft blue looked great and better than the sharper blue of AGs of yesteryear – I would love to see the bronze version as well. They were setup pretty near the corners and only about 6” from the wall in a 14x18’ room that had some angles in the corners so wasn’t quite symmetrical. The dealer had optimized settings for this room with a +3 bass push and 30hz higher crossover point than normal. He told me this was the best AG had sounded since they became a dealer in October of last year and they had spent the past 24 hours dialing them in more.

I usually ask for the dealer to put on a few cuts so I can adjust to the speakers before playing my reference tracks. We started off with some simple Miles Davis “So What.” The Siltech preamp and Nagra 300p amplifier were used with a Nagra HD dac and Aurender streamer. I soon moved on to streaming my music, starting off with Jason Isbell and Johnny Cash male vocals with a keen ear on horn coloration. I couldn’t hear any, so we were off to a good start. What I did hear was excellent presence – vocals were appropriately sized still, but took good shape in front off me (and weren’t hanging/dripping as some SET amps like to do and was the case in my Tune Audio demo). The amp/speaker combination was quite neutral – in fact, after a bunch of similar cuts from Christian McBride to Andrew Bird, I quipped that a hair more warmth/texture would be ideal. I note now, that the JJ 300bs are known to be lean in the upper midrange but with excellent bass. What I did find that tonality was very sweet on some Max Richter and other related violins- the highs were clearly not sibilant which was another horn worry I had.

Next I went through my classical and electronica arsenal – I was entirely surprised. There has been a lot of conversation on this thread that horns suck for rock and electronica. Well, they don’t. Instead a nice soundstage was presented with instruments that really popped off the landscape. I actually reached for more electronica than normal with Air, etc as these speakers were really compelling on the genre. Small sounds in the cuts really pop, the sound was extremely enveloping, and I got deep, tight bass that wasn’t staring at me from the floor like with a Martin Logan. I did notice that certain instruments were more on the horn or that they didn’t disappear like my Devores – however, this was effectively countered by the micro dynamics. You really didn’t care as much as instruments were freed from the speaker. This was particularly noticeable on Natalia Lafourcade cuts that I use with guitars that really project forward. I have a sneaky feeling that having the horns 3’ from the rear wall would be much better despite horn fans saying it isn’t. Overall I came into the audition expecting a small sound stage, but did not find that to be the case. I do think you trade some depth for dynamics however.

Sound was big, open, and dynamic. There was a “liveness” in the soundstage that was very compelling. I’m assuming this is due to the extreme sensitivity of the speakers. I will say that on my Explosions in the Sky “wailing guitar” track with tons of distortion pedals involved that there was some harshness. I left wondering if that was actually on the recording, that other speakers are kinder to it, or that this was the JJ tubes. What I can say is that Avantgardes are not going to like a dead neutral amplifier or SS in general. I just think they need a warm of neutral amp (like a YG ironically). Flow never seemed to bother me either – and on horns, that leading edge can be so fast that they require an amplifier that does proper decay like the Nagra. On strings, you really felt the undulation of the bowing project.

Speaking of flow, let’s talk about coherency. The issue with AGs since the beginning is the horns are too fast for the paper bass woofers – and therefore you can hear the handoff. Well I am happy to report that I tried my darndest on several brutal cuts (solo piano, string bass, etc) and couldn’t hear it. This was encouraging and I feel the XD technology makes the difference here. I will say that the bass may have been a hair much for that room, but I typically like a bit shelved down low end these days. The beauty of an active speaker (like I had with Zu) is that’s easy to accomplish. AG has many more settings than a traditional subwoofer from what I’ve been told – and you send in your room acoustics from a microphone kit and they will send back a recommended setting list.

So where does that leave the AG? If one wants a pinpoint imaging, totally disappearing speaker, with razor-like detail then this isn’t one’s speaker at all. But if enveloping sound that has a live element is your thing the Duo XD is hard to beat. I texted my friend @jeffrey_t after that they “sounded pretty rad” if you guys want the unofficial reaction. Will this replace the Devore? I have not made an official decision as I’d like to come back to my room and do more listening after this experience (my ARC has been in the shop to replace a light and receive back today). I can say if I decide to upgrade that I am inclined to go in this direction. I do think AGs are finicky with amps, so there is some work to do on that front.

Sounds like a cool demo. Interesting that a lot of myths were busted (at least to your satisfaction) like the rock/electronica one. On my own horns I find electronica sounds very good indeed, rock is hit and miss (the more compressed the worse it sounds). I have heard a fair number of convincing demos from AG with the right electronics and setup...and disappointing ones when those things are not properly addressed. Regarding the Nagra: was it SET or push/pull (I thought it was push/pull)? I believe it is also a hybrid with a SS front end, like KR Audio does. The discussion on the JJ tubes is mixed...one guy found them like you described and another found them to be among the best 300Bs. I had them in my JJ-322 and they were anything but thin in that amplifier (it had a lovely tone...but not syrupy). I suspect going with a different amp would have made the demo even more impressive...the 50 watt Audiopax amps were simply awesome on the Duo Omegas (predecessor to the XD).

I think the Duo blends better with the bass because the mid horn goes down lower...for whatever reason, I always found it less colored than the smaller Uno mid-horn...perhaps the size/geometry gives a different set of resonances that are less harmful sonically with the Duo?

Freedom from the speaker with horns I (and friends with horns) have found to have a lot to do with the electronics. My own theory on SS amps is that they are less clean in the highs and this both makes them too grainy and aggressive for horns and also makes localization of the sound source (i.e. the speaker) more obvious. It is not so much warmth that is needed as an absence of high order harmonic distortion and noise. Get rid of that (also power management becomes very important) and they will disappear. You will also not need more than a couple of watts...I am getting away beautifully on my DIY horn project with a little tiny 5 watt Class A triode PP tube amp (it was less noisy than the 11 SEP so I use it on the horns) on 110db horns. More is really not needed...but it should be a very well designed 2-5 watts.

The DSP bass is likely to help integration and i think AG has improved their subs significantly; however, I think you should see what the Mezzo brings (if possible) before going with the normal XD...that short horn can significantly improve integration between bass and mid horn (although you noted no obvious issues there).

I am not sure what you mean by razor-like detail? Do you mean imaging precision? You stated that the micro dynamics were superb so I would consider the detail to be all there (based on what I have heard they definitely don't lack detail). You can get the amibience from the recording to help with depth but again, noise and electronics really needs to be under control for this or it will sound a bit flattish and maybe stuck to the speakers. You won't get ENHANCED soundstage from a lot of back radiation (as pointed out from Folsom)...some people might miss that...particularly planar owners. So, with a lot of close miked recordings it is definitely a "they are here" vs. "you are there" experience...more so than with other speaker types...with natural space though I have found it still comes through if really on the recordings.

If I didn't love my Odeons so much I would be considering AGs (I actually liked the sound a lot of the new Zero model as well and now they have a half-active version...). Did you consider the Zero half-active? It is a hell of a speaker and a lot more room friendly.
 

Tango

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When I stand right between my Cessaro, it does feel like Folsom's picture below...no music...hollow. But from my listening position, only music no speakers.

31F9AB2E-47F0-4DB4-9424-0CD3A8860E1D.png
 
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microstrip

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(...) Many horn people say that you cannot generate by pulling horn speakers into the room the sonic depth you can generate by pulling box and planar speakers into the room. I don’t understand it, but I have never myself experimented with this with horn speakers

Ron,

F. Toole points the direction in his book (page 139) :

In summary, it is clear that the establishment of a subjective preference for the sound from a loudspeaker incorporates aspects of both sound quality and spatial quality, and there are situations when one may debate which is more important. The results discussed here all point in the same direction: that widedispersion loudspeakers, used in rooms that allow for early lateral reflections, are preferred by listeners especially, but not exclusively, for recreational listening.
There appear to be no notable sacrifices in the “imaging” qualities of stereo reproduction. Indeed, there are several comments about excellent image stability and sensations of depth in the soundstage.


I consider myself a recreational listener and want to stay so - it is why I avoid any form of audio training, such as the Sean Olive online methods. IMHO some people in this forum have now become almost trained listeners, it is one the reasons of our different preferences and perspectives.

Another great place to find information about the mechanisms creating depth in the soundstage is the site:/www.linkwitzlab.com. I think the site will be particularly interesting for you, as Siegfried Linkwitz has strong preference towards dipoles. I just googled the word "depth" in his site and found some references to your main objections to horns: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/accurate stereo performance.htm

B3 - How deep is the auditory scene?
Very shallow -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 Very deep


The depth of the AS depends strongly upon the recording technique used. On pan-potted and closely miked studio recordings - as is common for pop music - it tends to be very shallow. The ear/brain does not receive adequate cues for perceiving depth of a natural space within which the instruments were played. On classical music recordings - and again depending on the microphone technique used - there can be a strong sense of depth developing as different instruments of the orchestra illuminate the venue in which the performance took place. The perceived depth is not bounded by the distance of the loudspeakers to the wall behind them if that distance is at least 1 m.


B5 - Do the loudspeakers disappear aurally?
No -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 Yes


The aural disappearance of the loudspeakers is to some extend a function of the program material. It is also a function of the loudspeaker's non-linear and linear distortion performance and polar response. Program material with left and right channel monaural sources gives hard boundaries to the AS. The loudspeakers stand out as left and right sources of sound. (end of quote)

We can immediately find two interesting aspects - very different properties of pop music and classic music concerning depth information and recreation, and the need of controlled reflections to create depth in most recordings.

Remember that typically - we have exceptions - the dispersion patterns of horns and box speakers is night and day - please note I am not saying which is which! ;)
 

bonzo75

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My sister just messaged, "let me tell you a secret. What you like is not necessarily the best". I was having a hard time distinguishing between the audio forum and the family whatsapp chat
 
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bonzo75

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I think you can't listen to a horn the way you want to listen to a Martin Logan or vice versa. Yes there is a obviously a minimum requirement of certain attributes but each type of speaker has a whole based on different weightings of attributes that lead to a realistic whole.

For example, Pietro's yamamura, General's pnoe or Tang's Cessaro might not disappear as much as a small heco direkt in an equally sized room, does not mean the latter is even a small percent of these systems. Same with universum and Anima, I have heard them straight and toed in, in corners and pulled out into the room

One of the DIY horns I heard and loved, I could sit at 3 feet, 8 feet, or 50 feet (massive room). I enjoyed all equally without thinking of backward layering, soundstage, speaker disappearing... Which are things I think about a lot on other systems.

Most horns give a big stage the bigger the room. That is because they play loudly easily without straining so spreading them further and wider leads to a bigger stage. They are less sensitive to other aspects such as reflection, ideal front wall or side wall, etc, though some might need to be pulled out a bit. All the big horns give a big sound.

The imaging, toe in or straight on, narrower or wider depends on the listener's preference but it does change sound. However I don't see myself adjusting horns if I had them across every inch the way I did my Martin Logan stats and verity cones, not listening the same way. I like them more for different reasons
 
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Tango

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For example, Pietro's yamamura, General's pnoe or Tang's Cessaro might not disappear as much as a small heco direkt in an equally sized room, does not mean the latter is even a small percent of these systems. Same with universum and Anima, I have heard them straight and toed in, in corners and pulled out into the room
Is it possible the optical illusion take effect in disappearing act when listen minimonitors vs big ass horns or cones. :rolleyes:
 

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  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

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