KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

bonzo75

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I liked the effect it had with the cellos in the Bruckner

I prefer this setting. It makes the bass sound better and more integrated, rather than left and right. But if you put this on recordings many will not know if their left and right speaker is properly set up heh
 

Audiophile Bill

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I prefer this setting. It makes the bass sound better and more integrated, rather than left and right. But if you put this on recordings many will not know if their left and right speaker is properly set up heh

In all seriousness, there are quite a few free setup streaming tracks on Tidal etc that’ll name your left and right speakers as well as a load of other stuff.
 

KeithR

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Sorry guys- just got back from Europe and have some other priorities. I wish I could travel the world like Kedar, but that wasn't the aim of this trip - my good friend got married in Krakow.

I will have some additional thoughts on the Duo XDs when the jet lag is finished. I am still processing what I heard last Thursday.
 

tima

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Violins are almost always on the left.

Yes, the concertmaster on the conductor's left. As Bonzo notes there can be exceptions wrt basses, and while interesting those are not the rule. This came in the context of getting channels proper or recognizing they are not.

Whenever I swap components in and out - which I do a lot - I play a record I know really well, just to double check the wiring. Usually that's Sibelius 2nd w/ Okko Kamu and the Berlin Phil. Does any one else do that? If so, what do you play?
 

morricab

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Yes, the concertmaster on the conductor's left. As Bonzo notes there can be exceptions wrt basses, and while interesting those are not the rule. This came in the context of getting channels proper or recognizing they are not.

Whenever I swap components in and out - which I do a lot - I play a record I know really well, just to double check the wiring. Usually that's Sibelius 2nd w/ Okko Kamu and the Berlin Phil. Does any one else do that? If so, what do you play?
Either Haydn or Beethoven string quartets of various performances/labels. They all have violins on the left/left middle and viola/cello right middle/right.
 

Ron Resnick

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. . . Ron who was worried about it does not hear it on Cessaros . . .

Sherlock Holmes himself would not be able to find any instance in which I have used the expression “cupped hands.” I describe my issue with the way horn loudspeakers reproduce vocals in the terms of “transparency” and “in-the-room presence.”

I don’t know if this is the same sonic issue as the “cupped hands” issue. Even with Jeroen’s Cessaro Zetas, which I loved, I still perceived a tiny bit less transparency and in-the-room presence on vocals than I hear with electrostatic or ribbon speakers.

As I have written several times if my primary musical interest were jazz, or jazz and classical, the Zetas would be my favorite loudspeakers.
 

Ron Resnick

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On this question of “boxy” sound from box speakers, to a greater or a lesser extent don’t planar speakers in general sound more open and less “sound coming from a box” than box speakers in general? Isn’t this one of the primary reasons planar devotees like planar speakers?
 
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morricab

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Sherlock Holmes himself would not be able to find any instance in which I have used the expression “cupped hands.” I describe my issue with the way horn loudspeakers reproduce vocals in the terms of “transparency” and “in-the-room presence.”

I don’t know if this is the same sonic issue as the “cupped hands” issue. Even with Jeroen’s Cessaro Zetas, which I loved, I still perceived a tiny bit less transparency and in-the-room presence on vocals than I hear with electrostatic or ribbon speakers.

As I have written several times if my primary musical interest were jazz, or jazz and classical, the Zetas would be my favorite loudspeakers.
What seems to be missing in your opinion? As a former hardcore planar guy (having owned 8 different brands/models of planars) I would not say that it is inherently true that they are less transparent but there can be resonances from the horns (again some and not all) that can give some veiling but it sounds more like tonal abberation rather than outright loss of transparency. With the best horns I hear just as much transparency and even more presence with horns. With my new DIY horn project I have to say these inexpensive, plastic 18 Sound horns coupled with a really good compression driver are stunningly transparent and present. The guys from 18 sound seem to have calculated a very good horn shape, which seems to have all the benefits and none of the flaws of a more traditional horn shape. The sensitivity of the compression driver is extreme (110db) so it captures every whisper and nuance.
 

Ron Resnick

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I appreciate everything you wrote, Brad.

My transparency issue with horns is a very narrow one, and it is an issue solely with vocals.
 

morricab

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On this question of “boxy” sound from box speakers, to a greater or a lesser extent don’t planar speakers in general sound more open and less “sound coming from a box” than box speakers in general? Isn’t this one of the primary reasons planar devotees like planar speakers?

Yes, the lack of coloration from the box is one of the big pluses of planars...part of why the articulation and transparency is so good. However, that said, there is some coloration from the panels themselves...some people report metallic sound with metal ribbons and a quacky, plasticky sound with electrostatic panels. IMO, the plasticky panel sound is pretty easy coloration to ignore because it is kind of ever present and so your brain just filters it out. The one speaker I had with a rather strong coloration this ways was the Infinity IRS Beta. If you came straight from a live concert they you would hear this coloration quite strongly. However, after listening for a little while you soon forgot about it and enjoyed the overall transparency, dynamics and scale the speaker brought. Come away and then back again and you had to reacclimate sometimes. With Apogees, this was pretty minor in comparison and same for the Acoustats, which had low coloration...still a bit but we are now talking about a low level here.
 

microstrip

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Yes, the lack of coloration from the box is one of the big pluses of planars...part of why the articulation and transparency is so good. However, that said, there is some coloration from the panels themselves...some people report metallic sound with metal ribbons and a quacky, plasticky sound with electrostatic panels. IMO, the plasticky panel sound is pretty easy coloration to ignore because it is kind of ever present and so your brain just filters it out. The one speaker I had with a rather strong coloration this ways was the Infinity IRS Beta. If you came straight from a live concert they you would hear this coloration quite strongly. However, after listening for a little while you soon forgot about it and enjoyed the overall transparency, dynamics and scale the speaker brought. Come away and then back again and you had to reacclimate sometimes. With Apogees, this was pretty minor in comparison and same for the Acoustats, which had low coloration...still a bit but we are now talking about a low level here.

In some instances what we perceive as less coloration or more transparency is simply a different sound, not intrinsically a suppression of coloration.

Many people modify Quad electrostatics, for example removing grilles of the ESL63 or the back absorbing materials of the ESL57. A quick measurement has shown me that these modifications, that apparently increase clarity and transparency of of the speaker introduced strong coloration in sound.

I fully agree with you on the Beta's, but they were really enjoyable!
 

morricab

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I appreciate everything you wrote, Brad.

My transparency issue with horns is a very narrow one, and it is an issue solely with vocals.
Hi Ron,
What I fail to see is how a problem with voice could be a "narrow" issue. Voices cover such a wide frequency range with considerable tonal complexity, plus we know them in the real world what they should sound like better than any music as we hear them all day long. I would not be able to accept any speaker that ruined or at least was significantly worse than other speakers with voices.
 

morricab

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In some instances what we perceive as less coloration or more transparency is simply a different sound, not intrinsically a suppression of coloration.

Many people modify Quad electrostatics, for example removing grilles of the ESL63 or the back absorbing materials of the ESL57. A quick measurement has shown me that these modifications, that apparently increase clarity and transparency of of the speaker introduced strong coloration in sound.

I fully agree with you on the Beta's, but they were really enjoyable!
I think knowing the real thing should help to identify more or less colored but that will not tell you how acceptable a particular coloration happens to be. The Betas were not horribly colored (but it was noticeable...at first exposure) but they still made enjoyable music as you have stated. I have had less colored speakers that were more objectionable. That said, the initial smack of coloration that they provided almost made me not buy them...my Audiostatics had quite a bit less obvious coloration (they had other issues though like "venetian blind" highs).

One of the most startling examples was I went once to buy some OTL amps from a guy in Northern France. He had old JBL Olympus speakers, which were with 2 side by side 15 inch drivers a horn mid and horn tweeter. Upon first listen I was shocked at how colored they sounded compared to my own systems at the time (Apogee and Acoustat) and I thought, "How can this guy stand all that coloration to the sound"?? A funny thing happened though, after about 30 minutes I stopped thinking so much about the coloration and started to appreciate what the speakers did well, speed and dynamics and pretty ok resolution. I could have perhaps lived for a time with those speakers, strong coloration and all, but coming back to my own, relatively lower coloration system, was an "AHHH" moment.
 

Ron Resnick

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Hi Ron,
What I fail to see is how a problem with voice could be a "narrow" issue. Voices cover such a wide frequency range with considerable tonal complexity, plus we know them in the real world what they should sound like better than any music as we hear them all day long. I would not be able to accept any speaker that ruined or at least was significantly worse than other speakers with voices.

“Narrow” in the sense that if I did not listen much to vocals then it would not be an issue for me and I would have horn speakers. “Narrow” in the sense that I think many horn aficionados would not even be sensitive to or even hear what I am referring to.

I never remotely suggested the magnitude of “ruined” or “significantly worse.” These words are totally inaccurate expansions and exaggerations of what I wrote. I wrote “tiny bit.”

How do you extrapolate “ruined” and “significantly worse” from “tiny bit”?
 
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morricab

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“Narrow” in the sense that if I did not listen much to vocals then it would not be an issue for me and I would have horn speakers. “Narrow” in the sense that I think many horn aficionados would not even be sensitive to or even hear what I am referring to.

I never remotely suggested the magnitude of “ruined” or “significantly worse.” These words are totally inaccurate expansions and exaggerations what I wrote. I wrote “tiny bit.”

How do you extrapolate “ruined” and “significantly worse” from “tiny bit”?
Hi Ron,
I was taking what you said about not being able to live with it as meaning "ruined" or at least "significantly worse" because it has an actual impact on you purchasing the speaker. You may have said a little bit because you were being polite :). If it prevents you from buying the speaker because it doesn't do what you love as well then it is, at least in your mind, significantly worse, no? It might be little objectively, but subjectively it makes all the difference.
 

Ron Resnick

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Hi Ron,
I was taking what you said about not being able to live with it as meaning "ruined" or at least "significantly worse" because it has an actual impact on you purchasing the speaker. You may have said a little bit because you were being polite :). If it prevents you from buying the speaker because it doesn't do what you love as well then it is, at least in your mind, significantly worse, no? It might be little objectively, but subjectively it makes all the difference.

Please show me where I said (wrote) “not being able to live with it.” I never wrote any such thing.

I am splitting hairs, and you are breaking chairs. The transparency difference I am describing is small, picky and cosmopolitan. Only because I love vocals, and only because I happen to be sensitive to this particular attribute that I happen to perceive — even in my own case I find the transparency difference with the Zetas to be “tiny” — as I wrote.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Splitting hairs and breaking chairs. That's a neat turn of phrase.
 

DaveC

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This has been brought up a few times. I agree with Ron.

One thing I'd add is with a good horn (without obvious coloration) the effect is only noticeable on vocals because that's what we're most sensitive to. On anything else you can't tell, unless maybe you're a musician and intimately familiar with the sound of your instrument and you hear it played back via a horn vs a top end dynamic speaker right next to one another. Otherwise it's too slight to pick up on, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

morricab, one way to tell if your 18S horn is truly not doing anything audible would be to coat it in plastidip. You can peel it off easily if you don't like it, but I'd be willing to bet it'll be easily audible. I think there's no possible way the horn isn't contributing to the sound you hear. In fact, I think just coating or damping the backside of the horn with string caulk or something will be easily audible.
 

PeterA

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Hi Ron,
I was taking what you said about not being able to live with it as meaning "ruined" or at least "significantly worse" because it has an actual impact on you purchasing the speaker. You may have said a little bit because you were being polite :). If it prevents you from buying the speaker because it doesn't do what you love as well then it is, at least in your mind, significantly worse, no? It might be little objectively, but subjectively it makes all the difference.

What does this have to do with Keith's "Dream Speaker" search?
 
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