I have seen a paper where they looked at thermal compression and found peaks being compressed by up to 7dB. That will clearly impact perception of dynamics I would think...I think it is a pernicious problem as it creeps in right from the get go...the higher the sensitivity generally the less the effect at a given input power.
KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search
- Thread starter KeithR
- Start date
There were shown at the Long Beach audio show and I thought they sounded fantastic. 110% WAF factor as well.
Again IMHO we can't support a general argument on isolated cases of poor behavior of some non identified speaker in mysterious conditions. We debated thermal compression several times and still we do not have nothing than suspicion. Peter question was clear - what are your dB numbers for low sensitive speakers? What peak sound pressure are you addressing? Unless he have numbers we can be disagreeing on our agreement!
I have listened to the big Dynaudio Consequence (83 dB/W) powered by Cello amplifiers in an 80 square meter room and they were extremely dynamic - by far the best Harry Belafonte I have ever listened.
I haven't purchased anything - just was playing with @Ron Resnick. I believe Boenicke could be dynamically interesting as they use a direct-coupled midrange ala Gamut - which despite their sensitivity, had very good dynamics in my auditions. So perhaps the minimal crossover is as important in that regard.
The baby W8s at the local audio show by a computer server company but I missed that room.
Last edited:
Direct coupled drivers no doubt helps. One thing about Boenicke speakers is the frequency response is carefully tailored by Sven’s ears and I suspect this also plays a role.
I heard this a few years ago in Munich with a big tube amp that had a carbon fiber chassis (Bittner audio or some such name)! Sounded pretty good but did not draw attention to itself specifically regarding dynamics. Smooth and even sounding like Dynaudio often sounds. Are you trying to tell me it sounds more dynamic than your Wilsons? The one purely dynamic driver speaker that I feel has good dynamics was the original 95db Wilson X1...not any Dynaudio I have heard...even the big Evidence. The Goebel Divin series does pretty well too.
So to answer Peter’s question, I would say around 92 or 93 and up gets you the possibility of good dynamics unless the drivers have small, poorly cooled voice coils, which probably also plays a major role. Typical hifi drivers are not nearly as robust this way as pro drivers. Dynaudio might be better in this regard with their large diameter voice coils but one of the worst speakers I ever had with regard to dynamics was a Dynaudio (Contour 1.8mkii) even driven by a 500 watt Moon amplifier. This speaker was great with things like Norah Jones and pop/rock where total recording dynamic range is like 10db. It sounded ok with Jazz and horrible/boring with wide dynamic range classical. Tried many amps to no avail. 85db speaker and 4 ohms...pretty insensitive but supposedly with an excellent motor system. Blah. A 95db speaker needs 10x less power to hit 95 dB peaks...at least . Why at least? Because once you put 10 watts into the dynaudio woofer it is probably already compressing that peak and won’t hit 95db, which the other speaker will with one watt.
I also really enjoy the wildly inefficient MBL 101's. They really energize a room.
Is this what you are referring to?? That is a 300 watts continuous over 60 seconds to show the onset times and also what the max compression was comparing various motor types. Also any driver that has compression effects with a 10 watt input would not be found in any modern speaker system 100 watts OK but not 10 IMHO.
Rob
Attachments
I think thermal compression is a bit of a scapegoat... While the compression can be bad with pink noise or something that's pretty constant... (Rob's is 300w, more than any of us would ever listen to for even a second with music). My 99db speakers sound vastly different than my 89db speakers regardless of listening levels. You'd think if compression was the issue that the differences in sound would be expressed as volume climbs, but it starts out as low as you can hear either. There's so many other reasons for them to sound different.
Capacitance in IC cables has a bigger say so in dynamics than a LOT of things audiophiles like to discuss.
Damping of drivers/speakers can have an effect too. Scaling of volume perception is something we're more sensitive to than the actual change of SPL... lots of stuff affects that. Driver size vs IMD, damping, shorting rings, VC over/under hung.... etc, on top of the sound of the electronics interaction with them.
Looking forward to your review. The fullrange that is the tweeter is the lowest sensitivity part of the speaker and the limitation in volume most likely as well. But the size makes it more directional so that's beneficial in some ways. My biggest concern with Boenicke is that I'd be worried you might end up feeling limited in upgrading electronics with less room to grow than a more capable speaker may allow.
Last edited:
Well no doubt driven correctly they sound big. Interestingly, another Swiss company, Soundkaos, has come up with a mini speaker very similar (too similar??) to the Boenicke W5 and this tiny speaker sounded very good with Bakoon (tiny Korean amps). It was using a Tang Band “full range “ driver with a Raal ribbon upward firing and side firing bipolar woofers.
No that one I haven’t seen before. However, I find it strange that it is hard for people to accept this very real issue with speakers. Not only does it compress peaks it messes up crossover points and each driver will experience the problem at different rates. Most audiophile drivers have smaller voice coils (unlike pro drivers) that will heat up swiftly.Is this what you are referring to?? That is a 300 watts continuous over 60 seconds to show the onset times and also what the max compression was comparing various motor types. Also any driver that has compression effects with a 10 watt input would not be found in any modern speaker system 100 watts OK but not 10 IMHO.
Rob
I should disclose my intent to procure a pair of Lamm M1.2 hybrid monos. My luck with tubes and a wheelchair hasn't been kind and I've always wanted to try Lamm. Also, I know that my TVC is a good match with the Lamm as confirmed by @jeffrey_t
I don't feel it will change my ultimate speaker direction, but is change nonetheless.
I don't feel it will change my ultimate speaker direction, but is change nonetheless.
An excellent decision IMHO . If you buy used be careful - the photos of my pair show from time to time in several online advertisements, even showing the serial numbers in detail! Unfortunately the seller used extremely good quality detailed photos in the advertisement and scammers got them.
As a big single driver fan... I'm not convinced anymore. I think crossovers can be very transparent and almost always beneficial when designed and good parts are used.
The midrange driver on my speaker can be used without a crossover at all, but the combination of a film cap bypassed with a copper foil cap limits excursion and makes for less distortion while sounding nearly indistinguishable from the driver w/o xo.
IMO, any wideband or fullrange driver will benefit from a highpass filter if a woofer or subwoofer is used.
Makes sense but then the passive components need to be really good or their signature will come through.
That's not complicated since film (PP) caps generally measure at a good -120db on any noise at all. But they all sound slightly different...
Exactly the character comes through regardless of the seeming infinitesimal distortion, which of course is what “character “ really is...
Similar threads
