KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

the sound of Tao

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Yes, there's a lot of depth in electronica, and sometimes it appears to be essential to the message, like for example in Steve Roach's "The Magnificent Void" where you "fall into it" if your system manages to reproduce that depth.
Al I’m sitting here listening to Glass Animals (about the same era as Alt-J) and the layering and clarity as well as width and depth is implicit. Good electronica can be a great reveal on the general noise levels in a system and that music of great ambience is built by these kind of subtle contrasts and textures.
 

Ron Resnick

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What is people's thoughts on a kind of 4-channel "stereo" I might investigate? Using a processor that leaves front two channels unaffected, but reverses phase to a couple of full range rear channels w fixed 15ms delay w some Hafler processing. Aiming for zero change to main music at front but some low level immersion from rear.

The processor is the now-discontinued Naim AV1 unit, and I would go with some form of Zus behind me.

I don’t think this is a good idea.

I’m not sure we all could handle you fretting over two pairs of speakers. :)
 
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213Cobra

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What is people's thoughts on a kind of 4-channel "stereo" I might investigate? Using a processor that leaves front two channels unaffected, but reverses phase to a couple of full range rear channels w fixed 15ms delay w some Hafler processing. Aiming for zero change to main music at front but some low level immersion from rear.

The processor is the now-discontinued Naim AV1 unit, and I would go with some form of Zus behind me.

Basically a Dynaco Quadapter? No. Forget it. Please. -Phil
 

tima

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The room acoustics play a large role, next to electronics, in portraying convincing depth.

Granted that masking or distorting the audio signal increases the chance we will not hear, or hear clearly, low level signal information that contains cues to localization, including depth, I believe more damage is done to impinge on timing information by room reflections. In my experience acoustic treatments can yield really significant improvement to the sense of venue context and dimensionality - particularly depth - moreso than electronics.
 

Al M.

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Granted that masking or distorting the audio signal increases the chance we will not hear, or hear clearly, low level signal information that contains cues to localization, including depth, I believe more damage is done to impinge on timing information by room reflections. In my experience acoustic treatments can yield really significant improvement to the sense of venue context and dimensionality - particularly depth - moreso than electronics.

There is a central absorbing panel at my front wall, see first picture here:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/octave-hp-700-preamplifier-listening-impressions.28074/

I could take it out (thereby revealing a central stack of tube traps). If I were to do that, perceived spatial depth on a number of recordings would increase substantially, perhaps even dramatically. Yet I prefer it the way it is. I like the greater sense of energy on more upfront recordings, with absorbing panel in place. And on a diverse palette of orchestral recordings I hear a larger difference between them in terms of spatial depth, from upfront to loads of depth layering, than I would without the panel in place. The more difference between recordings the better in my view; it suggests more transparency to what's actually on the recording.

The difference in average perceived spatial depth, with panel in or panel out, is probably greater than most differences in the spatial presentation of competent electronic components would be. Competent meaning they don't mask low level spatial information because of a noisy power supply, for example.
 
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spiritofmusic

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tima

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The difference in average perceived spatial depth, with panel in or panel out, is probably greater than most differences in the spatial presentation of competent electronic components would be. Competent meaning they don't mask low level spatial information because of a noisy power supply, for example.

Thanks for the picture, Al. I use 11 Aperture panels throughout my room. Their contribution is audibly obvious. I have decent electronics and cables (see my profie) but my soundstage's depth, width and height - the acoustic venue - is nowhere as dramatic without them. Drawing from David Griesinger: The ear's ability to perceive proximity (relative nearness in place and time) relies on its ability to detect direct sound as different from other sound by way of the phases of upper harmonics - reflections tend to randomize/mess-up these phases.
 

morricab

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I'd agree as well. For a long while my system was producing too much depth, due to room reflections. Almost everything sounded too recessed; hall information or reverb on recordings was exaggerated.

The two recordings that I described in my previous post:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/keithrs-dream-speaker-search.27069/page-87#post-598115

would have sounded differently. The first one which now sounds direct would have sounded with more hall information than actually on the recording, and less direct, the second one would have sounded far too recessed, to the point of being painful.

Only careful and quite extensive room treatment finally normalized the situation.

Here I also disagree with Brad (morricab). The room acoustics play a large role, next to electronics, in portraying convincing depth.
Careful Al, I never said that room acoustics played no role...just not nearly as large as most here want to believe. I have been able to make very convincing soundstaging ( all dimensions) with essentially no treatment and careful placement.

My experience with too much reverb in a room is not so much that you get too much depth but rather just a muddled up soundstage period (horizontally, vertically and depth) with rather poor imaging to boot.

My systems breathe...meaning when the sound is recorded forward it sounds forward when it is in a large space (think better classical recordings) then you get a more "you are there" feeling and then space in all dimensions is mapped onto my listening room. For more intimate music like Jazz quartets, well recorded pop/rock etc. I get much more of a "they are here" feeling like I would in a small club or studio. That said, there are some small ensemble recordings that should sound not sound like they are right in your room and if they do then it is wrong.

One of the recordings I made probably 15 years ago now was of solo violin in a 20m2 room. The violin was a Strad and the player was my (extremely talented) ex-girlfriend. The pieces were the 24 Paganini Caprices. I made this recording with a mono condenser mic onto R2R tape (mid 70s TEAC). It is VERY present and forward, which is how such a sonic cannon should sound at that distance in such an enclosed space. However, it shouldn't sound flat...just close. If it sounds any other way then that system is doing something wrong.

Maybe I have just been lucky with rooms? It is a possiblity...or I started selecting speakers that have inherently more controlled dispersion, which then interacts less with the room and lessens greatly the need for treatment. I have realized great benefits from using power regeneration on sources and shielded power cables.
 

AJ Soundfield

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What is people's thoughts on a kind of 4-channel "stereo" I might investigate? .
If you are an acoustic music lover, vs say, a stereophile, 4 is the absolute minimum amount of channels to create the realism of a real 3D space. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2002STIN...0286499H

Using a processor that leaves front two channels unaffected, but reverses phase to a couple of full range rear channels w fixed 15ms delay w some Hafler processing.
That is a rather crude method. Far more perceptually advanced would be something like Logic 7, which decorrelates the rear channels to remove leading edges of the signal that the hearing system uses to localize the azimuth of sounds.
Linkwitz (RIP) had long advocated for such a setup. Note the front 2 channels are untouched, pure stereophile stereo.

Aiming for zero change to main music at front but some low level immersion from rear..
Bingo. Last show I demo'd, did exactly that, with people inches from the rears. They were oblivious, due to the decorrelation.
You can always switch the "effects" off with the touch of a button, especially for non-acoustic, maybe more studio electronic "stereo" stuff.

cheers

AJ
 
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KeithR

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Al I’m sitting here listening to Glass Animals (about the same era as Alt-J) and the layering and clarity as well as width and depth is implicit. Good electronica can be a great reveal on the general noise levels in a system and that music of great ambience is built by these kind of subtle contrasts and textures.

have you checked out Glass by Alva Noto? Has really cool soundstage stuff.
 
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KeithR

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Interesting back and forth on soundstage depth, thanks fellas. As I told Phil this past weekend, I want the most even sound in the room. Configuration is of second importance although livability can't be completely eliminated.

Phil values living space more, so I expect to have the speakers out a little further than he would normally prefer. I'll post a picture of the setup this weekend once the speakers are unboxed and into the initial position.

What I can say is the "L" shape of the room clearly has echo/reverb from the adjoining space so I am completely onboard with trying the long wall first which has much more symmetry. There will be a fireplace in the middle and some paned glass on the rear wall, but there are solutions for that in due time.

Also interesting is my Kiwi friend @Pallen just setup the Gibbon Xs in a 14'x15' room successfully with no bass issues. He originally thought about downsizing to the Super Nines, but isn't sure now.
 

morricab

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Interesting back and forth on soundstage depth, thanks fellas. As I told Phil this past weekend, I want the most even sound in the room. Configuration is of second importance although livability can't be completely eliminated.

Phil values living space more, so I expect to have the speakers out a little further than he would normally prefer. I'll post a picture of the setup this weekend once the speakers are unboxed and into the initial position.

What I can say is the "L" shape of the room clearly has echo/reverb from the adjoining space so I am completely onboard with trying the long wall first which has much more symmetry. There will be a fireplace in the middle and some paned glass on the rear wall, but there are solutions for that in due time.

Also interesting is my Kiwi friend @Pallen just setup the Gibbon Xs in a 14'x15' room successfully with no bass issues. He originally thought about downsizing to the Super Nines, but isn't sure now.

So, what is the plan now, Keith, after 89 pages of discussion? Try your current speakers in the new space and if it works to your satisfaction then the hunt is over? o_O
 

bonzo75

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Have you seen Vittorio De Sica's great 1948 Italian film bicycle thieves? They search for the thieves but at the end don't find any. Still one of the best movies ever made
 
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spiritofmusic

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let's move the quadraphonic stuff to your own system thread, Marc. thanks
This was just a left field addition to the chat on stage depth. Agreed it's OT.
 

the sound of Tao

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have you checked out Glass by Alva Noto? Has really cool soundstage stuff.
Thanks for that Keith... will check it out when I get home tonight.
 

KeithR

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So, what is the plan now, Keith, after 89 pages of discussion? Try your current speakers in the new space and if it works to your satisfaction then the hunt is over? o_O

of which 60 pages are you guys pontificating over different subjects? :p

The room was always in the mix from the OP. It was a required step to move forward as I didn't feel my prior room was worthy of a big speaker upgrade. I will have a better handle on potential sound this weekend when the DeVores are setup.

I hope to have another Gamut audition soon, but this time the floorstander.
 
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asiufy

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New room sounds much better indeed. Might not just be symmetry that did it. The lack of that bass boom is really allowing an extra midrange clarity to come through.
Of course, the symmetry allows the image to be more solid, more locked in position, while it would be more diffuse and ill defined in the previous room...
It really does sound like you did an upgrade or two in the system!
 
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