KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[spiritofmusic]

I thought Townsend was quite poor. Also music first. Ypsilon, and SS pres which seem to sound like passive, Dartzeel and solution, are much more preferable

Ked, Music First is the TVC that Keith is extolling. I guess he doesn't agree it's poor.

 

[Zero000]

FWIW I put a Music First up against my Air Tight ATL-10A passive with upgraded Alps RK50 pot.

The Music First was better.

 

[bonzo75]

Ked, Music First is the TVC that Keith is extolling. I guess he doesn't agree it's poor.

I just remembered it was their top of the line phono and not pre that I compared.

 

[microstrip]

sure, but until you've tried one hard to come to any conclusion. also, i'd note that Micro testing off the shelf transformers is of limited value. kind of like testing speaker drivers from parts express and saying a speaker that uses them is great or sucks.

I fully agree on the limited value, but for people with technical knowledge it is of higher value than testing speaker drivers from Partsexpress. My tests and measurements explained to me why I clearly preferred the Flex Connect box to the other two transformers in that particular system at that time. IMHO we should know what we are buying. As I say the problem is not in the measurements, it is in the abusive interpretations.

 

[microstrip]

While Keith was moving, he gave me the opportunity to demo his Music First passive Pre in my system. I had a nice two week demo and got to really enjoy the unit. In summary, it is an excellent piece of gear and I could easily live with it in my system.

Strengths
Clarity (a purity I'm not used to hearing)
Black background
Absolute silence (zero buzz through my compression driver, unlike my Lamm)
Remote control
Build quality and fit and finish

The only areas where my Lamm beat the Music First were in instrument texture and sound stage. People often say passives lack bass, but that simply wasn't the case in my system. When you think that you dont need tubes, you have a remote and just one knob.....it is a lot easier to own then my Lamm LL2.1 Deluxe.

Most systems using a preamplifier and an amplifier will have too much gain for high-efficiency speakers. The XLF's are 93.5 dB and I had such problem - I can imagine the situation with 100 dB speakers. Although I can select the output range of the Vivaldi, I prefer to use it at 2 or 6V.

BTW, I agree with your views on Lamm aspects you point - texture and soundstage are very strong points of sound reproduction for me.

 

[213Cobra]

Any thoughts Keith why I couldn't get on w the Townshend Allegri AVC? It had everything: resolution, imaging, low level detail. Just no blood.

Fed Audion Black Shadow 845 SETs.

I
Marc,

It's not surprising. I don't know exactly why (the impedance figures don't explain it) but I found Audion Black Shadow and Golden Dream amps to lack synergy with TVC and AVCs, and vice versa. The lower end Audions do better but TVC/AVC still isn't ideal for any of them. With solar having forced Audion and SET out of my Definitions system, I am back to using a TVC with all its benefits. Audion is best with an active pre, or drive it from a source directly (input sensitivity is high). Both work better than coil-based attenuators on Audion amps.

Phil

 

[spiritofmusic]

Phil, I've never had an audio experience like it. Firing up music, and things were initially really encouraging. Definition and details off the scale, basslines articulation etc.

Then as you wait for the music to wash over you and feel the passion, nothing. I guess "skeletal" is the term I'd use. Or "pixellated". The outlines were there. You could join the dots. But as a full blooded experience, as far away as you could imagine.

I'm well versed w Blue58's Java Triple Shot optologic passive which I also believe is an AVC type pre, going into 45 tubed monos, and his sound is hugely textured and colourful.

My dismissal of the Allegri didn't go down at all well w the designer!

 

[KeithR]

Another point of reference, as Phil might remember, we tried TVC with McIntosh 601s and it was a loser compared with the matching active tube preamp.

Just like anything else, some things work and others don't. For instance, I don't like tubes with Dartzeel. I don't like ARC LS preamps with any amp

 

[Ron Resnick]

Well Ron, then you REALLY want that Mayers/Pnoes system. I mean, who wouldn't? Lol.

If my primary musical genre preference were jazz then Pnoes/BD5/Mayers would be my favorite system.

 

[bazelio]

Nord has a passive AVC and TVC in a single box with a switch that allows you to select one or the other on the fly. It's the Nord One. They measured both modes at 0dBV and normal source and load impedances. More or less as expected, the AVC mode is lower in distortion than TVC mode. Differences are not yuge and absolute distortion is quite low for both. Given a well designed AVC and TVC, this relationship should hold in general. Distortion deltas are greatest below 100Hz, and this does give the TVC its warmer sound.

 

[KeithR]

Nord has a passive AVC and TVC in a single box with a switch that allows you to select one or the other on the fly. It's the Nord One. They measured both modes at 0dBV and normal source and load impedances. More or less as expected, the AVC mode is lower in distortion than TVC mode. Differences are not yuge and absolute distortion is quite low for both. Given a well designed AVC and TVC, this relationship should hold in general. Distortion deltas are greatest below 100Hz, and this does give the TVC its warmer sound.

so you can hear .008% vs. .004% distortion? Lol. that's like saying SS preamps measure better than tube preamps using THD criteria. i don't put any stock into it.

Jack Roberts compared the MF to the Emia and said this (the MF has been updated with better tformers since fyi):

"The Baby Reference looks bright and light; it is in fact much heavier, but it looks smaller and lighter. The sound of the Baby Reference is more powerful, darker, and bolder than the Emia. The Emia is quicker, has more finesse, delicacy and is smoother sounding."

So they are just different and probably system synergy determines the outcome. Maybe I'll have Brent bring over the Emia some time, although its not balanced in my fully balanced rig which isn't apples to apples.

 

[brencho]

For sure man, happy to swing by with it and enjoy some tunes! You're welcome here anytime to demo it with the Emia phono stage, I can maybe arrange another phono demo or two if curious.

Jack Roberts review was a good one, and I ended up choosing the Emia in part because it was easy to demo at home vs the MF and it worked out so well vs what I had before it (the EAR 912). I also had a really great experience with Slagle and Jackson, which I greatly value.

p.s., if anyone in SoCal has an Allnic phono and is willing to let me have a listen please PM me!

 

[bazelio]

Yeah the absolute numbers are lower than I remembered. I agree that the Nord delta is in the noise. Though the trend that a simpler AVC has less distortion in the lower frequencies than the more substantial TVC is intuitive. It can play a role with some designs. But compared to SS or tube line stages, the passive AVC or TVC bass is almost always going to be cleaner. I think a lot of people conflate clean bass with lean bass. It takes some getting used to because it's not often encountered, to be honest.

Was Jack comparing silver to silver, copper to silver, or what? Balanced vs unbalanced is probably too significant a variable to make the comparison.

 

[brencho]

Silver emia and copper MF

https://www.dagogo.com/music-first-audio-baby-reference-preamplifier-review-followup/

https://www.dagogo.com/emia-remote-autoformer-review/

 

[bazelio]

We need to hear a silver MF, in my opinion, to really draw any subjective conclusions in terms of MF vs Emia. But copper vs silver is still an interesting listen. And as a data point with TVCs, the Bespoke TVC fans such as @CKKeung who've heard both options seem to find the silver version better overall.

 

[KeithR]

Back to speakers, any other thoughts out there gentlemen? I think I've settled on dynamic driver, relatively efficient (90db+) speakers.

 

[dan31]

I can’t keep up. Have you heard the JBL 4367? It would be on my list if I wanted to switch from my Harbeth M40.1.JBL Designer thinks dynamics are a high priority.

 

[CKKeung]

We need to hear a silver MF, in my opinion, to really draw any subjective conclusions in terms of MF vs Emia. But copper vs silver is still an interesting listen. And as a data point with TVCs, the Bespoke TVC fans such as @CKKeung who've heard both options seem to find the silver version better overall.

Yes, I had directly compared Bespoke Copper vs Bespoke Silver and slagleformer Bent Audio Copper vs slagleformer Emia Silver.
The silver TVC & AVC were better than their copper counterparts in almost all aspects.

For MFA, I compared directly a Classic II Silver vs Copper Reference vs Baby Ref v1 copper vs Baby Ref v2 copper at a gathering.
Couldn't get any conclusion on silver vs copper at that gathering bcos they were diff models.
What my frds and I knew were that we liked the Baby Ref v2 most.

 

[tima]

Back to speakers, any other thoughts out there gentlemen? I think I've settled on dynamic driver, relatively efficient (90db+) speakers.

Whew! lotta work and time by you to get there and it's been interesting to hear about.

Don't know if this a fair question ... What, at this point, are your top three brands?

 

[tima]

If my primary musical genre preference were jazz then Pnoes/BD5/Mayers would be my favorite system.

In terms of your preferences, Ron, what are the characteristics of jazz music that are less suited to alternative topologies?