Klaudio’s Pivoted Linear Tangential Tonearm

[microstrip]

It's not up to personal opinion or any opinion. That is a pivoted tonearm and skating force applies. It's basic geometry and mathematics.

Yes, the geometry and mathematics are facts, but I was answering a question bordering correlation with subjective aspects. And in such matters we can only have opinions.

Also residual skating forces exist during playback - the linear speed is not exactly the same at both sides of the groove.

 

[marty]

As I recall, the use of a groove free surface to test anti-skating effectiveness was abandoned because it does not account for the force that causes the headshell to propel inwards, which is the action of the stylus in the grooves that directs (drags) the headshell towards the spindle. Wouldn't it be far more convincing to show distortion measurements of an actual signal in a typical grooved record when trying to demonstrate the need for anti-skating and the effectiveness of any remediation used? A Fozgometer perhaps? Or Analog Magik?

 

[Kingrex]

Yes, the geometry and mathematics are facts, but I was answering a question bordering correlation with subjective aspects. And in such matters we can only have opinions.

Also residual skating forces exist during playback - the linear speed is not exactly the same at both sides of the groove.

Thank you Micro and yes, I was asking a opinion queston. And I interpret you to say you feel a need riding in the middle of the groove with even force on both sides as well as the zenith being correct, In your opinion, is as, if not more important than say the stiffness of the arm tube.

I could interpret this as a KLaudio arm that keeps the zenith correct, and is assumed to stay in the middle of the groove with even force on both sides would have the potential to be a better arm than say a Kuzma Sapphire that is very still, but has tracking errors.

 

[mtemur]

When there is skating force that is not compensated then zenith is never correct. It will cause cantilever to tilt one side while cartridge and headshell looking perpendicular to the groove.

More importantly one side is never read accurately cause there is always a side force.

 

[Kingrex]

When there is skating force that is not compensated then zenith is never correct. It will cause cantilever to tilt one side while cartridge and headshell looking perpendicular to the groove.

More importantly one side is never read accurately cause there is always a side force.

So Marty is correct that conventional pivoted tonearm have an inherent flaw that at this time have not been overcome with strings or magnets. And this issue can cause enough unwanted distortions the product should be avoided if possible.

I don't quite understand how a linear tracker overcomes this unless a laser moved the arm. Same for a tangental arm. The sidewall has to push the arm in. Othetwise it would sit in the same spot and never move? Just like in the video of a flat spinning plate.

 

[mtemur]

The sidewall has to push the arm in. Othetwise it would sit in the same spot and never move? Just like in the video of a flat spinning plate.

check this:

Klaudio’s Pivoted Linear Tangential Tonearm

I think I have my system tuned well enough I am hearing a loss of "musicality" as the arm tracks from outer to inner. I hear a change. Sort of a loss of dynamic excitement. I am looking. Budget is going to be the biggest issue for me. I saw one linear tracker at a show and JR warned me to...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[alwayslearning]

I also had the pleasure of visiting Peter's audio playland about 10 days ago. Truly amazing what Peter has built from scratch. Here are some more photos:

 

[Solypsa]

When there is skating force that is not compensated then zenith is never correct. It will cause cantilever to tilt one side while cartridge and headshell looking perpendicular to the groove.

More importantly one side is never read accurately cause there is always a side force.

@mtemur as usual you are making good posts based in science and with experience. In this case what ( achievable ) objective test would you propose for Klaudio?

I have no vested interest in the outcome, but I admit this arm is very interesting to experience in person....

 

[mtemur]

@mtemur as usual you are making good posts based in science and with experience. In this case what ( achievable ) objective test would you propose for Klaudio?

I have no vested interest in the outcome, but I admit this arm is very interesting to experience in person....

IMHO friction of bearings should be checked both individually and totally as a system. Once it's cleared that zero-friction and zero-play bearings are installed it's time to concentrate on anti-skating mechanism. It has to be rather complex one.

If I'm not mistaken by the pictures and videos I can only make a rough guess about how the tonearm works and the skating force involved. I guess an unusual anti-skating mechanism is needed. Unlike other pivoted tonearms I guess skating force changes direction on this one. I'm just guessing by looking at the pictures and I can be wrong about changing direction but not the existence of skating force.

 

[Solypsa]

IMHO friction of bearings should be checked both individually and totally as a system. Once it's cleared that zero-friction and zero-play bearings are .

I can see your logic, yet of course this is impossible

 

[mtemur]

I can see your logic, yet of course this is impossible

I don’t know if it’s impossible or not. Maybe it is because of using too many bearings.
Zero friction and zero play is a practical term for highest quality but even then you may end up with friction and rigidity problems. That’s why most tonearm designers concentrate on simple mechanisms.

 

[djsina2]

What's the story with the spindle that looks like a drywall anchor?

 

[Kingrex]

I think I am hearing, every tone arm reguardless of design has a lateral tracking force error. Unless some insanely intricate antiskate device keeps the needle exactly in the center of the grove from the outer to inner of the record. And what arms employ such a device.

A linear tracker or a KLaudio designs advantage is that the stylus is kept in alignment with the groove from the outside to inside. It still may suffer from mechanical forces being necessary to move the arm.

At times the complexity of vinyl makes you want to throw up your arms and say WTF. Its no wonder people say get out while you can. Vinyl has been around for how long, and practical solutions to known issues are far from being solved. Vinyl might sound good, but its highly likely most everyone is far from having their setup tuned optimally as the mechanical devices employed have fundimental fatal flaws in design. Add to that, many of the albums I have contain a digital step. What do I make of that on top of all the rest.

 

[Solypsa]

What's the story with the spindle that looks like a drywall anchor?

The clamping is automatic ( note : pictured table is a prototype ). You place the LP and move the arm towards start position. The spindle ' wings out ' and drops to place a clamping force, at the same time a rim clamp rises, moves in and clamps the outer edge of the LP....

 

[Klaudio/Peter]

I don’t know if it’s impossible or not. Maybe it is because of using too many bearings.
Zero friction and zero play is a practical term for highest quality but even then you may end up with friction and rigidity problems. That’s why most tonearm designers concentrate on simple mechanisms.

Yes, your opinion regarding skating and bearing friction is correct. Skating comes naturally. But the amount is much less than in conventional skating. There is also bearing friction, too. However, the friction was designed to be applied as a necessary damping to turn the disadvantage into an advantage.
The tonearm was hung by a thread, and the zero-friction Weltempered tonearm was immersed in silicone liquid to give appropriate friction. Also, just as the SME VI tonearm was immersed in the liquid tray to give appropriate damping for unwanted vibrations.
Klaudio tonearm's friction of several bearings is evenly averaged and applied as appropriate damping resistance.
Yes. So, as you can see in the video, there is no skating without any anti-skating mechanism.
The harmony between the minute skating force and the bearing friction is designed to be a significant advange for stable low-frequency playback.

 

[mtemur]

Skating comes naturally. But the amount is much less than in conventional skating.

It can be lower but I’m not sure about that. It needs to be checked.

There is also bearing friction, too. However, the friction was designed to be applied as a necessary damping to to turn the disadvantage into an advantage.

I wouldn’t call it an an advantage. Damping a tonearm is not necessary. On the contrary it should be avoided. Damping by bearings or any kind of damping at all can not be seen on top performing tonearms. Most of them has stiffer, harder materials (carbon fiber, titanium, sapphire etc.) without any damping or connection. Cause connection of two pieces also reduces rigidity. Only part that needs damping is rear weight. It’s related with resonance frequency of tonearm. If you’re referencing resonance then it should be eliminated by choosing stiffer material and careful designing of arm tube not damping by bearings.

Damping tonearm tube or bearings reduce dynamics and absorb detail.

The tonearm was hung by a thread, and the zero-friction Weltempered tonearm was immersed in silicone liquid to give appropriate friction. Also, just as the SME VI tonearm was immersed in the liquid tray to give appropriate damping for unwanted vibrations.

I’m not advocating Well Tempered nor SME but the silicone well found on SME V is an option. If cartridge’s compliance is too high you can improve trackabiliy by using silicon damping. It’s just an option and the arm can be used without it. Actually it should never be used in any case. Instead of that the cartridge should be replaced with a proper one. Same goes for Kuzma 4Point. But according to your statement your tonearm always apply damping by bearings. It’s always in force which shouldn’t.

Klaudio tonearm's friction of several bearings is evenly averaged and applied as appropriate damping resistance.

There shouldn’t be any resistance on bearings practically. Bearings should have the lowest possible friction and lowest starting force. This will enable free movement of stylus at the highest level.

Evenly averaging bearings resistance means increasing total resistance which will load cartridge’s suspension eventually. That will not only ruin zenith alignment but also limit free movement of stylus in the groove let alone decreasing cartridge life.

Besides mentioning all those important factors I admit that you have all the right to do with your design and choose whatever approach is right for you. I respect that.

 

[Klaudio/Peter]

It can be lower but I’m not sure about that. It needs to be checked.


I wouldn’t call it an an advantage. Damping a tonearm is not necessary. On the contrary it should be avoided. Damping by bearings or any kind of damping at all can not be seen on top performing tonearms. Most of them has stiffer, harder materials (carbon fiber, titanium, sapphire etc.) without any damping or connection. Cause connection of two pieces also reduces rigidity. Only part that needs damping is rear weight. It’s related with resonance frequency of tonearm. If you’re referencing resonance then it should be eliminated by choosing stiffer material and careful designing of arm tube not damping by bearings.

Damping tonearm tube or bearings reduce dynamics and absorb detail.


I’m not advocating Well Tempered nor SME but the silicone well found on SME V is an option. If cartridge’s compliance is too high you can improve trackabiliy by using silicon damping. It’s just an option and the arm can be used without it. Actually it should never be used in any case. Instead of that the cartridge should be replaced with a proper one. Same goes for Kuzma 4Point. But according to your statement your tonearm always apply damping by bearings. It’s always in force which shouldn’t.


There shouldn’t be any resistance on bearings practically. Bearings should have the lowest possible friction and lowest starting force. This will enable free movement of stylus at the highest level.

Evenly averaging bearings resistance means increasing total resistance which will load cartridge’s suspension eventually. That will not only ruin zenith alignment but also limit free movement of stylus in the groove let alone decreasing cartridge life.

Besides mentioning all those important factors I admit that you have all the right to do with your design and choose whatever approach is right for you. I respect that.

You seem to have misunderstood mechanical damping as tube dampling. Anyway, you are very scientific and theoretical.
If you make your own tonearm, I would like to have a listening competition with you or visit me and discuss with you.
It will be very exciting discussion time, we can talk together while looking at the Klaudio tonearm in action and seeing if there is any problem with bearing friction and if there is really skating issue.

 

[marty]

All I can say is I could never enter this room and see this-


unless I knew there was one of these nearby and ready for use.



Also, regarding this Franken-"thing", I have no idea what the hell it sounds like but if you don't love it and want to take it home just to plug it in and watch it glow, you ain't no audiophile!!

 

[Solypsa]

@marty if you don't know how it sounds, why the dismissive tone? Or do I not get your humor?

As for the naked record, it happens when you are having fun and in a group. I was there and we had a ball. Not such an issue when there are three rcm nearby.

 

[marty]

@marty if you don't know how it sounds, why the dismissive tone? Or do I not get your humor?

As for the naked record, it happens when you are having fun and in a group. I was there and we had a ball. Not such an issue when there are three rcm nearby.

It wasn't meant as dismissive in any way. It was genuine admiration. Seriously! To build something like that just impressed me regardless of the sound, which I presume pleases the builder! Those amps are hardly some rubber stamped device designed by committee but by a very dedicated and passionate audiophile.

As far as putting bare LPs on the floor like that, that's just my OCD declaring itself. Definitely misplaced anxiety on my part. Mea culpa.