Koetsu

[Inline Six]

The way Inline Six characterizes things sounds right to me.

I have no idea if this is correct but I read from reports that the sonic differences in stone bodies were trivial* and covered up by sample to sample build variation (as Inline Six says), but that different stone bodies were used mainly to distinguish different levels of parts selection and matching and build time -- that the more expensive stone bodies somehow had parts more carefully selected and matched and more care and time spent on putting the innards together.

Is this correct?

* Of course different hardness levels of different stones could cause different resonances or damping which, in theory, could affect the sound.

In Germany all stone Bodie carts costs the same - it does not matter if you buy a blue lace or an onyx...I know, that it is different in the US....so I doubt, that higher selection was present at the most expensive (in the US) blue lace. And then the question is - what is higher selected....the Platinum magnets...the silver cladded 6n coils, the damper....??? And in which parameter was it higher selected - 6n means 99,999999 pureness - I doubt that we could differentiate 4n from 6n....all the best - Ekki

 

[Ron Resnick]

In Germany all stone Bodie carts costs the same - it does not matter if you buy a blue lace or an onyx...I know, that it is different in the US....so I doubt, that higher selection was present at the most expensive (in the US) blue lace. And then the question is - what is higher selected....the Platinum magnets...the silver cladded 6n coils, the damper....??? And in which parameter was it higher selected - 6n means 99,999999 pureness - I doubt that we could differentiate 4n from 6n....all the best - Ekki

Thank you.

 

[jadis]

You might got me wrong: Of course you need exactly the materials Koetsu are made of...starting at the specialcantilever design and stylus cut. And of course Granite is not among those materials - it has a reason, why the stone bodies were selected in the way we had it. But if a skilled cartridge builder - like the ones who worked for Koetsu - as the old man could not do it anymore - the got his advice for sure - other than that - we would have cartridges, which would sound different since a long time...but that is not the case. So there was knowledge transfer - and the biggest miracle lays in the materials - building a cart, which has this "old fashioned" technology - which the Koetsu have to this day - is no rocket science - if you have all the correct ingredencies... So if Sugano could not do it himself the last years - there are people who manufactured those carts one by one..and those people know exactly how it must be made. Other than that - Sugano would have corrected their work with any cartridge , which left the factory. Sound differences between stone bodies as a result of the body material (letting alone the coral stone) is something I highly do not beliefe is possible.What is possible is, that 5 Koetsu sound different - may it Stone body carts or Urushi or Rosewood. If we compare 4 Urushi - we will not hafe 4 identical cartridges - as they are handmade. While adopting the right pressure while sparing the wire of the suspension - with just a slight amount of pressure difference - and you habve a slightly different compliance - which will affect immediately the sound - as you get a different damping figure. I had 3 years ago the chance to compare 4 Rosewood Signature - and each sounded a little bit different - and it is also a myth - that we users will - even with the utmost care - get the same adjustment, whenever we adjust a cartridge. So - we have slight variations in the making, and with the adjustment - and this is waaay bigger - than the difference between an Onyx and a Blue Lace. Regarding rebuilds....no one will get this special stylus cut - nor this needle - it is not a standard Ogura model (as Lyra's do also use custom made stuff from the same company)....So all the retippers - be it VdH or weher ever used something else - not to speak about the damping rubber - if Thant needed to be replaced - or other parts. So it is obvious, that you must send the cart to the manufacturer - to get back, what you once bought. What I mean is - that the action in rebuilding such a gem - the stuff a skilled specialist will do - is no myth. To put it in different words: A motor specialist can repair a BMW and also a Mercedes if he gets the original parts from both companies - and often he does it better - then Mercedes or BMW. If we are talking of super skilled specialists - and that is what we would find at Koetsu (as the old master was not able to do it anymore) - the difference is more into the special parts - like silver cladded coil wire - wood of a certain age - and how it fits the cartridge motor, the stylus, damper and needle etc. As nit Sugano himself made the carts the last years - there are people who know how you built a Koetsu! - That is what I wanted to say.....all the best - Ekki

Agree. There indeed are people hired to do the physical job. How many? I can't even guess. In such a close knit family organization, and to be frank, secretive company (I haven't even learned of its address in Japan after all these years), the old man, imo, has to be the the glue that holds them together. Hence my reservation, who is going to be this glue? They have to appoint one among themselves? Who will have attained the exact same stature and respect of the old man? If that area is determined properly, my reservation will be greatly reduced. From the Facebook info posted by Ron, it was said that the family did not want to risk tarnishing the brands reputation and legacy by selling to an outside entity. That connotes the workers and makers will be there but the family still believes that the brand can be tarnished by such an arrangement. And where did this doubt come from? That's my point, who holds the makers together? Apparently the family does not believe an outside group can.

 

[jadis]

Here is Jack's post #126 in the One amigo thread of Steve, describing the sonic differences between 5 or 6 Koetsu stone bodies.

Post in thread 'One Amigo Visits South East Asia and Hears Some Amazing Systems' https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-hears-some-amazing-systems.21241/post-408772

 

[RickS]

Here’s a thought, the only Koetsu I have heard or even seen in person is one thought of as Yoshiaki Sugano designed and built by Musashino Labs. Not all of these early Koetsu Blacks are known for the best tracking (some did track fantastic, mine sure does) but they all have a good share of Koetsu magic. And by gosh, they sure do last!!
The point being, some mysterious folks at Musashino Labs were able to produce products good enough for Mr Sugano Sr to put his name upon, surely there’s folks at Koetsu who have been there helping construct these cartridges that could do likewise? Just a thought.

 

[shakti]

The German Distributor (Axiss) is currently in Japan, we might get in a couple of days some more information.

First hint from Japan does not see any new Koetsu carts in a nearer future,
the situation in Japan seems to be more complicated than estimated.

 

[Djcxxx]

There are always intangibles that guide business decisions when surviving family must make them. Family owned and operated concerns often fail to survive the first generation due to a myriad od competing family interests. Additionally loss of control and perceived loss of honor (i.e Kondo AN/AN UK) from partnership agreements may far outweigh monetary considerations. In a very real sense only the Koetsu name will go forward in the absence of the previous family centric structure. An honorable past cannot be tarnished if the Koetsu name is not applied to any future effort.

 

[JimmyJet]

Well, we all react differently, and my reaction was to purchase two Koetsu carts yesterday LOL! A Black Goldline and a Urushi Wajima to add to my recent Rosewood Signature. Having discovered the Koetsu magic only recently, the thought of not having anymore of these little treasures around persuaded me to purchase a couple of specimens from the current generation. And I’m very happy I did, regardless of future production, and am really hoping the employees will continue on with hand crafting these carts as they always have.
(Now, if I could only get my hands on a Vermilion, I’d really feel complete.)
—cheers!

 

[mtemur]

I think if staff of Koetsu cannot manage to take control of the company they will start a new one. Tango staff started ISO after the name is sold to Wavac in 2014.

 

[retired farmer]

The way Inline Six characterizes things sounds right to me.

I have no idea if this is correct but I read from reports that the sonic differences in stone bodies were trivial* and covered up by sample to sample build variation (as Inline Six says), but that different stone bodies were used mainly to distinguish different levels of parts selection and matching and build time -- that the more expensive stone bodies somehow had parts more carefully selected and matched and more care and time spent on putting the innards together.

Is this correct?

* Of course different hardness levels of different stones could cause different resonances or damping which, in theory, could affect the sound.

For sire the hardness levels of the stone would change the sonic signature. I offered wondered how stone would sound better than dense wood. I have wood planks of paduk rosewood and purple heart and each one sounds different when the preamplifier or sources are placed on top of them. Everyone of them sounds better than a glue up or wood of less density. I never liked marble as a platform to set components on. That is why I wondered about the stone bodies but I have never heard one. The highest I have listened to was the rosewood signature

 

[Mike Lavigne]

listed my minty Azule for sale.

reason---need $$$'s for Wadax Akasa DC cables and still stay married.

"sold" pending.

 

[apropos]

The way Inline Six characterizes things sounds right to me.

I have no idea if this is correct but I read from reports that the sonic differences in stone bodies were trivial* and covered up by sample to sample build variation (as Inline Six says), but that different stone bodies were used mainly to distinguish different levels of parts selection and matching and build time -- that the more expensive stone bodies somehow had parts more carefully selected and matched and more care and time spent on putting the innards together.

Is this correct?

* Of course different hardness levels of different stones could cause different resonances or damping which, in theory, could affect the sound.

Have been told directly by SEA distributor that all innards are made to the same specs, no special selection.

 

[jadis]

Have been told directly by SEA distributor that all innards are made to the same specs, no special selection.

Which is also why the rebuilding cost of any stone bodies are the same, only the shell/body is retained.

 

[Djcxxx]

I ordered a leopard stone body Koetsu last April. Took delivery in early June never imagining this would be the last of the line. Very smooth and detailed out of the box unlike my coralstone which sounded a little harsh until about 20h. I load both at 100 ohms.

 

[jadis]

I ordered a leopard stone body Koetsu last April. Took delivery in early June never imagining this would be the last of the line. Very smooth and detailed out of the box unlike my coralstone which sounded a little harsh until about 20h. I load both at 100 ohms.
View attachment 128121

Great move! Visually, the Leopard is my favorite among the stones.

 

[RickS]

Koetsu craftsmen will be handling Koetsu rebuilds.
Michael Fremer interview at beginning of YouTube video.