when looking for "a-ha", do we think moving 0.25 mm increments is about right? i have had some success with half turns of the Safir adjustment screw (0.25 mm) but surely there is some established wisdom in this regard?
Kuzma SAFIR 9
- Thread starter Marcus
- Start date
A little off topic but this is a privilege of owning Kuzma XL turntable. Very precise and repeatable VTA settings are possible with the adjustable 14 kg tonearm tower.
Yes, this is exactly what I learnt too with my XL DC and setting up the dynamic VTA and dynamic SRA along with my Wally Tools for my 4Point 11" and MSL Eminent Ex cartridge.
Without the fully adjustable Kuzma Tonearm Tower and the Kuzma Digital Height Gauge and my Wally Tools for sure I would have been way out getting the height of the Tonearm Tower correct (which is at +7.27mm) for setting the current guidance dynamic SRA angle of 92 degrees (from a dynamic VTA of 24.28 degrees and a Contact Edge To Cantilever Angle of 67.81 degrees) which to my ears currently sounds the best overall setting for all music genres, record thicknesses and record production years.
I also noted that very small height changes i.e. 0.25mm for instance (as somebody mentioned earlier in this thread) didn't make a noticeable difference to the sound (and I am critically listening to music with my TOTL Hifiman EF1000 Amp & Susvara Headphones).
It took 1.0+mm height change steps from the starting height of -5mm (giving a dynamic VTA of 21.25mm and SRA of 89 degrees) to the final +7.27mm height to start seeing any noticeable differences to the changes to the music I was hearing and also to change my MSL Eminent Ex's dynamic VTA and SRA to any significant angle change to get to the final 92 degrees.
Also note that I found respectable differences between the static and dynamic values for SRA and VTA for each of the differencing heights and height changes I made to the Tonearm Tower.
I would assume a Kuzma Safir9 would be no different to a Kuzma 4Point 11" I have when setting the dynamic VTA and SRA (as I would also assume to be same case with any other tonearm !)
For further reading;
All details of my experiences with setting dynamic and static VTAs and SRAs with my Kuzma 4Point 11" and MSL Eminent Ex cartridge are posted in the 'Using Wally Tools' thread !
hi @Bonesy Jonesy perhaps you mention it and I have missed it, but what difference was there between static and dynamic VTA setting?
Hi 'Wutang-401',
If you go to the 'Using Wally Tools' thread, page 6, my post on 29/09/2023 the information on the static and dynamic VTA and SRA differences is given for each tonearm height settings I used.
Note that the VTAs and SRAs given was for my specific cartridge (MSL Eminent Ex) with approx. 730+ hours of use.
These VTA and SRA angles for other cartridges based on the tonearm heights used will for sure be different for other cartridges and also if a different tonearm is used possibly by quite a large margin.
Even the same cartridge I have but a new one / low hours of use one will have different VTAs and SRAs as the cartridge suspension will not be as supple as my cartridge operating hours when I undertook these measurements was already most probably past it's half life of use (assuming 1,200 to 1,400 hours of maximum possible theoretical use / operation) !
Incorrect cartridge hourly operational use i.e. was 717 hours not 730+ hours (from my digital Stylus Timer) when I undertook these measurements.
hi @Bonesy Jonesy I had a read and it looks to me that the difference between static and dynamic vta is like 1-1.5 deg per 5 mm of adjustment (to approximate/generalise).
i preface my comments by saying i am not experienced or skilled in these matters. i am ignorant.
that said, to me it seems this insensitivity of vta/sra tends to agree with you saying sound is relatively insensitive to sub mm adjustment.
i was shocked to see you were 7.2mm above dead flat to get something you thought was ideal.
i don't have the ability to say what is dead flat. i visually noted a feeling that rear of cart was lower than front. i was loving the sound but am aware that it could be better at another vta (maybe). i thought the sound was very thick and very analogue and it reminded me of your observation of sound at dead flat and below.
so i shifted the tonearm vta up 5 mm. i had to adjust the lift down so that it could still deliver the arm to the table. i would have gone higher however i reached the peak of the adjustment range and would have had to install a ring.
sound was slightly weak and thin so then i went down 1 mm.
loved it! i visually noted the cart seemed tipped, higher at rear and nearer vinyl at front.
on the one hand i feel like i am floating around here a bit. on other hand i feel like the sound keeps getting better and i am just finding my way. certainly i am getting much better at handling the tonearm and making adjustments.
i preface my comments by saying i am not experienced or skilled in these matters. i am ignorant.
that said, to me it seems this insensitivity of vta/sra tends to agree with you saying sound is relatively insensitive to sub mm adjustment.
i was shocked to see you were 7.2mm above dead flat to get something you thought was ideal.
i don't have the ability to say what is dead flat. i visually noted a feeling that rear of cart was lower than front. i was loving the sound but am aware that it could be better at another vta (maybe). i thought the sound was very thick and very analogue and it reminded me of your observation of sound at dead flat and below.
so i shifted the tonearm vta up 5 mm. i had to adjust the lift down so that it could still deliver the arm to the table. i would have gone higher however i reached the peak of the adjustment range and would have had to install a ring.
sound was slightly weak and thin so then i went down 1 mm.
loved it! i visually noted the cart seemed tipped, higher at rear and nearer vinyl at front.
on the one hand i feel like i am floating around here a bit. on other hand i feel like the sound keeps getting better and i am just finding my way. certainly i am getting much better at handling the tonearm and making adjustments.
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Hi 'Wutang-401',
Yes there is quite a big difference between 'static' and 'dynamic' VTAs and SRAs. Finding the 'dynamic' VTAs and SRAs is the way to go as this is the real VTA and SRA when the TT platter is spinning and you are playing and listening to your records !
From my listening to music in between me re-setting the tonearm height (in order to obtain the 92 degrees for the dynamic SRA), the sound did change quite considerably from when I started at the -(minus)5mm up to the final +7.27mm. It was like having an Equaliser in my system.
I must stress though that both the dynamic and static VTA and SRA are totally cartridge dependant even using the same cartridge with reasonable operating hours (as the cartridge suspension will become more suppler than when new(ish).
The other parameter that I didn't mention in my last post was the VTF setting you use as this setting can of course also make a respectable change to both the static and dynamic VTA and SRA. I used the cartridge manufacturers mid point setting of 2g (i.e. cartridge manufacturers VTF range of 1.9g to 2.2g) for my MSL Eminent Ex.
I have been planning from Oct / Nov last year (due to personal and work circumstances and commitments haven't had the dedicated time to undertake yet) to conduct further tests with using different VTF settings (as suggested by J.R Boisclair from Wally Tools) from say a range of 1.8g (0.1g below cartridge manufacturers min VTF) up to 2.4g (0.2g above the cartridge manufacturers max VTF) in 0.1g step change increments to see what differences these changes to the VTF settings make to the change in sound of the music and the static and dynamic VTAs and SRAs for the current 7.27mm tonearm setting I am currently using. Hope to undertake these tests / experiments in the coming weeks.
I must also stress that without the following I wouldn't have been able to successfully undertake these tests / experiments to determine my static and dynamic VTAs and SRAs;
- The use of the latest versions of the Wally Tools I purchased last year (Wally Reference, Wally Skater Pro, Wally Tractor Universal V2.01 and particularly the Wally Scope (fitted with the new adaptor to enable me to use a Dynolite X-Y adjustment arm) - in order to obtain the static and dynamic VTAs and SRAs in the first place). Without these Wally Tools I could never conduct such experiments / tests to a respectable accuracy to give meaningful results.
- The indispensable personal technical support (via emails and US to UK phone calls) from Wally Tools (in particular from J.R Boisclair) in order to make sure I was using the Wally Tools correctly and to discuss the results I was obtaining from Wally Tools own experiences.
- Having a Kuzma XL/DC TT and a Kuzma 4Point 11" Tonearm (TT and Tonearm Tower mounted at quite a high height where the platter and tonearm head shell are approx 1.4+m from the floor (so I can easily examine the cartridges cantilever etc. with the Wally Scope without having to crouch down to far to undertake this)) that has precise and quick multiple height adjustments for the Tonearm Tower and the Tonearm itself.
From the tests and experiments I have currently conducted for static and dynamic VTA and SRA, I can only wonder how many people who are operating their TT set-ups (from budget to high-end TT set-ups) around our planet without realising they may be able to obtain a different (and possibly a better - depending on the Users sound preferences etc.) sound with understanding and adjusting the dynamic VTA, SRA and VTF.
I would also 100% recommend you read the Wally Tools website and watch all of the Wally Tools Videos (and if you have the time, to watch the J.R Boisclair podcasts which are hugely informative).
And if you are really serious in setting up your TT set-up to get the maximum performance from it and achieve the ultimate sound from it that you personally really like, I would 100% recommend the Wally Tools!
I am looking into the Wally Tools. Last night I had an electrifying listening session with my tonearm at the highest possible level (would need to install a ring to go higher). Everything sounded better and "Cabaret" was a non-stop thrill. Bass was shocking good and better integrated into music as well it seemed to me.
Re: VTF I have been checking that religiously. So I am quite sure am still in a good spot with that.
Re: VTF I have been checking that religiously. So I am quite sure am still in a good spot with that.
Hi 'Wutang-401'
I forgot to mention that before I purchased and was using the Wally Tools (in particular the Wally Skater Pro), I was operating my Kuzma 4Point 11" Tonearm without realising that I had unwanted horizontal skating forces due to the tonearm's signal wire (where the white sheathed signal wire comes from the back of the tonearm arm tube into the tonearm's cable barrel connector) creating such unwanted horizontal skating forces.
From using the Wally Skater Pro and with the expert help from Wally Tools (J.R. Boisclair) I was able to near enough eliminate these non-realising / unwanted horizontal skating forces (checked with the Wally Skater Pro with the tonearm's anti-skating off / set to zero) which allowed me to dial in the correct ant-skate forces with the tonearm's anti-skating mechanism.
Suggest you check out the Wally Tools website on this subject regarding tonearm ant-skate forces and the WBF 'Using Wally Tools' thread where I talk about my experiences with these unwanted (and initially unknown) tonearm horizontal skating forces and how I set about correcting this issue.
I can only imagine that many people with TT set-ups around the world are operating their tonearms with such unwanted horizontal skating forces without knowing about them !.
i must admit to finding the WallyTools very intimidating. i would love to have such definitive information but i struggle to attach a cartridge.
i got an expert to set my table up but due to experimenting with mats his vta settings went by wayside quite soon.
also i note that i have seen the arm be impacted by cable tension and in my setup the arm at rest is angled in toward platter (slightly) so that at end of record (near centre of record) that tension doesn't exhibit itself (which it has previously by making the record skip).
for now i must wallow in my ignorance and my method was to (noting i am checking vtf constantly so it is around 2.5 g)
1. go low - i adjusted vta down down until i had no tracking.
2. i then went up 4 mm (or around 1 deg based on what's been published) - listening it sounded quite grey and i realised the treble was down
3. visually this looked flat (cartridge top and bottom parallel with disc)
4. i then went up 8 mm from there (this is ridiculous but i did this emulating you bonesy although i understand your setup and cart is yours and mine is mine and there is no reason for them to be similar)
5. it then sounded absolutely wonderful and i adjusted no more.
classical music sounds wonderful. all bass is resolved. no distortion. truly a very exciting experience. rolling stones exile on main street (disc 2) sounded amazing. pretty much felt like i had arrived at the dream. band sounds present. can hear everything but not antiseptic in anyway.
so i don't "know" my setup is optimised but i am in a state right now where if i am wrong, i don't want to be right.
i got an expert to set my table up but due to experimenting with mats his vta settings went by wayside quite soon.
also i note that i have seen the arm be impacted by cable tension and in my setup the arm at rest is angled in toward platter (slightly) so that at end of record (near centre of record) that tension doesn't exhibit itself (which it has previously by making the record skip).
for now i must wallow in my ignorance and my method was to (noting i am checking vtf constantly so it is around 2.5 g)
1. go low - i adjusted vta down down until i had no tracking.
2. i then went up 4 mm (or around 1 deg based on what's been published) - listening it sounded quite grey and i realised the treble was down
3. visually this looked flat (cartridge top and bottom parallel with disc)
4. i then went up 8 mm from there (this is ridiculous but i did this emulating you bonesy although i understand your setup and cart is yours and mine is mine and there is no reason for them to be similar)
5. it then sounded absolutely wonderful and i adjusted no more.
classical music sounds wonderful. all bass is resolved. no distortion. truly a very exciting experience. rolling stones exile on main street (disc 2) sounded amazing. pretty much felt like i had arrived at the dream. band sounds present. can hear everything but not antiseptic in anyway.
so i don't "know" my setup is optimised but i am in a state right now where if i am wrong, i don't want to be right.
My Safir 9, wired with Cardas Clear (internal to RCA block, then Transparent Magnum Opus to phono stage), arrives in a few days. Should have it up, running and dialed in by next weekend...
So I will be able to directly hear it vs my 4-point wired the same. We all know the answer but will be fun, I've enjoyed the 4-point and the easy adjustable VTA.
So I will be able to directly hear it vs my 4-point wired the same. We all know the answer but will be fun, I've enjoyed the 4-point and the easy adjustable VTA.
Hi Jfrech, my Safir is silver wired (kondo?) from cartridge to XLR connectors in a continuous run, I think.
In your case, I understand the Cardas runs from the cartridge pins and connect to the Transparent via a RCA junction box? Where about is the box? I am trying to visualise.
it will be interesting to see how you get on with this different cable arrangement. i found the tonearm sound very changeable until the kondo wire settled down. then it felt like the wire slowly retreated from field leaving sound of cart only. no longer do i feel any need to adjust vta per record. and the presentation is truly brilliant i think.
Jfrech I can see you use the kuzma products
Did you compare your Monaco 3 to the kuzma xl air ?
If so what are the main reasons you chose the GP product
I am going to listen to both soon in the UK
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