Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe
- Thread starter rockitman
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Are we not drifting too far off topic considering this is a thread about the Lamm LP2.1 and not how happy I am with my system?
Neither you nor Christian have one anymore
Honestly, I've gone back and forth with a friend over my new Devore speakers and he has some good constructive (if not too much) criticism. When reading your threads, it got me thinking about the relationships between audiophiles and how we can increase the fidelity of our systems.
"While I had previously described Ian's system as the best that I had heard, it did sound a bit too polite to my taste on some music"
Fair enough.
Yet in the same post I also said:
"I had said previously that Ian's system is the best system I have heard. With the XS Phono in place I would now say that Ian's system is twice the best system I have heard."
In other words, I have never withdrawn my claim that Ian's system is the best system that I have heard. This has nothing to do with sycophantism, but is an assessment as objective as I am able to make. Which is not to say that in some individual aspects I may not have other preferences of presentation. I look at the whole picture of overall quality.
99% of time all of us except the owner speculate on systems we have not listened or just listened a few times with a limited number of recordings. We bring our contributions to share our opinions and our experience in similar situations. Having listened to hundreds of systems, most of them with the same equipment in different configurations and having read hundreds of excellent posts of WBF members on their systems, I also sometimes feel I can understand their debates and risk an opinion.
This would be a very interesting subject - there is so much good music available only in digital. My great battles are with digital - analog usually sounds great with much less fight.
Are we not drifting too far off topic considering this is a thread about the Lamm LP2.1 and not how happy I am with my system?
Indeed. I will probably start an LP1 Sig thread in the near future.
Steve Williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Neither you nor Christian have one anymore
Honestly, I've gone back and forth with a friend over my new Devore speakers and he has some good constructive (if not too much) criticism. When reading your threads, it got me thinking about the relationships between audiophiles and how we can increase the fidelity of our systems.
I have a very good friend who visits often whose system tastes differ from mine (and he is basically a scientist). which works out well since i know he will be careful and cautious (and honest) with his feedback. it helps to keep me grounded. he is never hurtful but will not tell me what i want to hear. and i suppose it has helped to move me forward in a linear way toward my music reproduction goals.
consistent healthy feedback is a blessing and rare. i feel very lucky.
Are we not drifting too far off topic considering this is a thread about the Lamm LP2.1 and not how happy I am with my system?
I think one thing missing from this thread is that no one has asked you to post measurements with the Lamm and the Pass phonos
Hi
Interesting debate and lot of back and forth. We may need to back off and remember that at those levels of systems , it is matter of taste. What is the greatest for one person may not be for another person
I am however much annoyed though about the underlying Tubes > SS tenor of some posts. It just ain't so... for me and many. Also I disagree with the point that not liking a given gear points to inferiority or inadequacy of the rest of the system. There is no absolute best in Audio. There is however an objective reality, food for a different debate.
Interesting debate and lot of back and forth. We may need to back off and remember that at those levels of systems , it is matter of taste. What is the greatest for one person may not be for another person
I am however much annoyed though about the underlying Tubes > SS tenor of some posts. It just ain't so... for me and many. Also I disagree with the point that not liking a given gear points to inferiority or inadequacy of the rest of the system. There is no absolute best in Audio. There is however an objective reality, food for a different debate.
Precisely. Chill out people, not everyone has to like everything, even if it's the gear you favor or promote, especially when it comes to deciding to have to live with it in their own system.
There are strong subjective tastes in audio. If that were not so, why then would the diverse systems that people have be so enormously different from one another?
If you think your gear is best, then it's best for you, and that's fine. But it doesn't mean it has to be best for everybody.
Yes, unamplified live music may be an objective standard for audio reprodiction. But even people who attend the same concert perceive the sonics differently, also because they have their own subjective priorities in listening perception. And on top of that, each one may prefer to sit in different seats because things sound very differently at diverse positions in the venue.
I don't know much about the Devialet. have heard but never with phono so can't recommend this product with a system already in place. to expand a bit...
I have witnessed countless of times needle drops that dyed in the wool analog fans weren't able to discern from real analog let alone the 44.1 /16 bits digital provenance. I am vested enough in digital to be certain in a controlled environment differences may be inaudible for most. I do however strongly believe that the whole notion of audiophilia is predicated on trying to enjoy music reproduction via electronics means. This endeavor is sometimes (not always I stress) different from enjoying music. The choice of components is part of this "enjoyment" process. The knowledge of an A to D then D to A from the Devialet could impinge on the enjoyment for many of audiophiles who don't like the process. based on that I wouldn't recommend the Devialet to ian. I would suggest to get a serious listen at the Burmester 100... One of the most versatile Phono stage on the market in my biased opinion. it will work with any cartridges on the market loading them any way you see fit and if there is a need for needle drops ...
Trying to remain as polite, respectful and tactful as I possibly can while speculating so wildly on a system I haven't heard and daring to make suggestions
: I do however think that Ian system deserves a dedicated room. I believe that comes a level where a room dedicated to the task is the best option. The room could well be the source of the "dissatisfaction". I do understand the logistical nightmares and the lack of family interaction a dedicated room impose but at the level of those speakers (warning: Magico fan here), they (and the system which drives them) need their own made-for-the-purpose environment for the system to get to the next level. All that IMHO, YMMV and I apologize for the speculations , etc.
I don't know much about the Devialet. have heard but never with phono so can't recommend this product with a system already in place. to expand a bit...
I have witnessed countless of times needle drops that dyed in the wool analog fans weren't able to discern from real analog let alone the 44.1 /16 bits digital provenance. I am vested enough in digital to be certain in a controlled environment differences may be inaudible for most. I do however strongly believe that the whole notion of audiophilia is predicated on trying to enjoy music reproduction via electronics means. This endeavor is sometimes (not always I stress) different from enjoying music. The choice of components is part of this "enjoyment" process. The knowledge of an A to D then D to A from the Devialet could impinge on the enjoyment for many of audiophiles who don't like the process. based on that I wouldn't recommend the Devialet to ian. I would suggest to get a serious listen at the Burmester 100... One of the most versatile Phono stage on the market in my biased opinion. it will work with any cartridges on the market loading them any way you see fit and if there is a need for needle drops ...
Trying to remain as polite, respectful and tactful as I possibly can while speculating so wildly on a system I haven't heard and daring to make suggestions
All that IMHO, YMMV and I apologize for the speculations , etc.
Thank you for being tactful. I don't disagree with anything you've said. The room plays such an important role. I will never get the depth of soundstage and holographic 3D presentation that I've experienced from many of my friends' systems. I'm pretty sure that effect requires sidewalls (or at least parallel walls). I can live with that; for me the tradeoffs are worth it. My room doesn't prevent me from getting all the other attributes I care about; it really comes down to careful matching of components. I have 3 systems in my house, 2 of which are in dedicated rooms, plus a high end portable rig. I know what type of sound I like. I am a 'recreate the music event' type of person.
One thing I have learned is that investing in this hobby is a slippery slope. What satisfies Magico S5's does not necessarily satisfy the M-Pro (very different beasts!). It can be frustrating but when you make a move in the right direction, the satisfaction makes it all worth while (well, at least for me
).
Hi
Interesting debate and lot of back and forth. We may need to back off and remember that at those levels of systems , it is matter of taste. What is the greatest for one person may not be for another person
I am however much annoyed though about the underlying Tubes > SS tenor of some posts. It just ain't so... for me and many. Also I disagree with the point that not liking a given gear points to inferiority or inadequacy of the rest of the system. There is no absolute best in Audio. There is however an objective reality, food for a different debate.
Excellent post. It is about personal taste at this level. I don't get the whole SS tube thing either. Ian simply did not like that particular Lamm phono in his system and returned it.
Thanks for this link to Ian's system. I enjoyed rereading it. There are some excellent posts by member ack in the first few pages describing very well the qualities of the system.
Al, whatever your intentions for this post you're doing your friend and others a disservice by ignoring the facts. Mine and I venture to say most people's replies have nothing to do with what you're saying below.
Sorry Ian for opening this up again, it's not for arguing with anyone but I think that it will be helpful to you.
Fact is Al that Ian has been dissatisfied with his system for a while and repeatedly shared it here and on Myles' Audionirvana site. We know he's tried various things and multiple gear changes the LP 2.1 was just another effort. Based on Ian's comments IME simply blaming the phono stage's output is the wrong conclusion. From years of experience I can guarantee that aside from any gear related matters or other setup issues the front end wasn't optimized. At this level 1/10 of a gram a micrometer or slight deviation of tracking angle will result in poor performance.
One can blame anything they want or attribute things to personal tastes but fact remains that irrespective of anyone's feelings towards the Lamm removing it didn't bring about or restore a state of bliss...
david
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(...) I am however much annoyed though about the underlying Tubes > SS tenor of some posts. It just ain't so... for me and many. Also I disagree with the point that not liking a given gear points to inferiority or inadequacy of the rest of the system. There is no absolute best in Audio. There is however an objective reality, food for a different debate.
Frantz,
I would suppose that mature audiophiles could not be annoyed with the Tubes > SS or SS > tubes ...
And I think you are misreading what is being said - no one said that systems were inferior or inadequate - people just tried to point reasons why the experience was not successful, using the information available in audio forums. There is not an absolute best in Audio, but when properly used some equipment has definitively greater potential sonic quality than other. Anyway, we should remember that even experienced and well know designers in SS, such as John Curl or Nelson Pass tell us that in some technical and subjective aspects they aim at emulating the good things of tubes.
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