Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe

[Steve Williams]

I was using an A95 cartridge which has only 0.20v output. So I had to go up to 0.0db or higher to achieve over 80db. That is unnerving for me. I could see myself accidentally switching to my digital input and forgetting to adjust the volume.

But the real reason was the sound. I started playing some classical LP I was familiar with and noted that the quality of sound was very good, but then I got to a passage with strings in the upper octaves and couldn't hear it. Puzzled, I played a few other test LPs and noticed other elements of the arrangements very subdued. I then played LPs with vocals and found female voices slightly muffled. At this point I checked for loading options on the LP2.1 and found none, so switched back to my Pass phono to make sure my ears weren't blocked. Nope, ears were fine, lots of extension and clarity with the Pass. Then I got my wife to listen and she confirmed what I was hearing.

So... the question is why was this happening? I have no idea. I'm pretty sure nobody would design it to sound this way. Cartridge choice? I doubt that since I've heard Vladimir likes Ortofon. Maybe my RCA interconnect between the Lamm and my preamp (I normally use XLRs everywhere so had to settle for what I had on hand...).

I remain puzzled.

I will say that this unit is built like a tank and is extremely heavy (in a good way) and super silent. I had to put my ear practically ON my tweeter to hear anything, even with the volume turn high. Very impressive. As was the midrange texture and overall quality of the sound. It just didn't work out for me.

I recall 10 years ago (2001-2005) when I had the original Lamm LP2; which I used for 4 years as my reference. I liked it a lot.

however; it did not have the needed 'headroom' of gain to allow me to use some desired cartridges. it seemed like I was always pushing it to the limits. when used in it's designed performance envelope it was fine. it needed a cartridge with about .40v -.50v of gain to have enough headroom for the music to breathe. .30v was on the edge....

I had forgotten about that aspect of it.

It is more than puzzling because I know that Vladimir uses an Ortofon A95 as his reference. Christian IIRC who has the same Pass pre and amps was using reasonably low output carts and had no problems. Not sure if you know that there is a higher output version of the LP 2.1 (Mike I would suggest that 10 years ago you had the same and hence the newer higher output version) and in the LP1 Sig you get your choice of 2 SUT's in MC1 and MC2 and in the MM input you can use your own SUT's. Both my cartridges are low out put and hence my choice for two similar SUT's. I have never had that problem Ian so it is puzzling

 

[jeff1225]

I have the 70db SUT on mine. After poking around the internet, it seemed like the best choice as I like to change out cartridges quite often.

 

[rockitman]

I was using an A95 cartridge which has only 0.20v output. So I had to go up to 0.0db or higher to achieve over 80db. That is unnerving for me. I could see myself accidentally switching to my digital input and forgetting to adjust the volume.

But the real reason was the sound. I started playing some classical LP I was familiar with and noted that the quality of sound was very good, but then I got to a passage with strings in the upper octaves and couldn't hear it. Puzzled, I played a few other test LPs and noticed other elements of the arrangements very subdued. I then played LPs with vocals and found female voices slightly muffled. At this point I checked for loading options on the LP2.1 and found none, so switched back to my Pass phono to make sure my ears weren't blocked. Nope, ears were fine, lots of extension and clarity with the Pass. Then I got my wife to listen and she confirmed what I was hearing.

So... the question is why was this happening? I have no idea. I'm pretty sure nobody would design it to sound this way. Cartridge choice? I doubt that since I've heard Vladimir likes Ortofon. Maybe my RCA interconnect between the Lamm and my preamp (I normally use XLRs everywhere so had to settle for what I had on hand...).

I remain puzzled.

I will say that this unit is built like a tank and is extremely heavy (in a good way) and super silent. I had to put my ear practically ON my tweeter to hear anything, even with the volume turn high. Very impressive. As was the midrange texture and overall quality of the sound. It just didn't work out for me.

I think the LP2.1's step-up is too little gain for the A95 at 2.5mV. Not only a volume level issue...but the dynamics of the cart will suffer too.

Basically the A95 was a poor cart to audition the LP2.1 with given the standard 60dB step-up... I am sure you could have the 2.1 made with with the 70dB step up..but that's in material now.

 

[jeff1225]

I think the LP2.1's step-up is too little gain for the A95 at 2.5mV. Not only a volume level issue...but the dynamics of the cart will suffer too.

Basically the A95 was a poor cart to audition the LP2.1 with given the standard 60dB step-up... I am sure you could have the 2.1 made with with the 70dB step up..but that's in material now.

What he said.....

 

[rockitman]

It is more than puzzling because I know that Vladimir uses an Ortofon A95 as his reference. Christian IIRC who has the same Pass pre and amps was using reasonably low output carts and had no problems. Not sure if you know that there is a higher output version of the LP 2.1 (Mike I would suggest that 10 years ago you had the same and hence the newer higher output version) and in the LP1 Sig you get your choice of 2 SUT's in MC1 and MC2 and in the MM input you can use your own SUT's. Both my cartridges are low out put and hence my choice for two similar SUT's. I have never had that problem Ian so it is puzzling

Vladimir must be using MC1 70dB gain for his A95. I agree with Mike that .3 is on the edge with the low gain step-up....any lower and the cart performance will suffer. I will be trying my Dynavector XV1-t (.35mV) soon with the low output step-up. I think that is going to be a match made in heaven with the LP1.

 

[Steve Williams]

The info Vlad gave me was MC1 was for cartridges with output below 0.2 mv and MC2 was for cartridges with output above 0.2 mv

 

[JackD201]

It's a bit of a gray area since we are ultimately talking about ranges. In my experience the SUT with the 1:9 step up ratio only begins to shine at around .35, really good at .4 takes another leap at .5. I'm not at all surprised that Ian's volume control is turned way up with an A95. I thought Christian and I had that discussion here but I remember now that that happened on another forum. The 1:32 would be smashing with an A95 or something like a Proteus. Unfortunately this is not the standard SUT. Fortunately, if I'm not mistaken, one can easily get this if requested ahead of time and again IINM, little or no up charge over the standard SUT.

 

[XV-1]

It is more than puzzling because I know that Vladimir uses an Ortofon A95 as his reference. Christian IIRC who has the same Pass pre and amps was using reasonably low output carts and had no problems. Not sure if you know that there is a higher output version of the LP 2.1 (Mike I would suggest that 10 years ago you had the same and hence the newer higher output version) and in the LP1 Sig you get your choice of 2 SUT's in MC1 and MC2 and in the MM input you can use your own SUT's. Both my cartridges are low out put and hence my choice for two similar SUT's. I have never had that problem Ian so it is puzzling

It has been touched on why the Lamm did not work well in his system and not sure the the dealer bothered to waste Floyds time. 57.5db phono stage into a hard to drive 91db speaker with .2mv cartridge was never going to be near the optimum.
A bit like Floyd using the Ypsilon without the correct Ypsilon SUT.

Yours and Rockitmans X2's are very easy to drive and 95db gain. I would estimate that there would be at least 6db more usable gain in your systems, which is a lot.

Cheers

 

[ddk]

With all due respect everyone is jumping to conclusions without ever being in Ian's room knowing all the facts. Ian has a thread going on another site regarding his general dissatisfaction with his system and is trying out various electronics including a change of cords; that situation hasn't been resolved yet! The Lamm's high resolution could have simply exposed what's already wrong somewhere else in the system. Chris on the other hand is quite content with his system and the Lamm enhanced what was working properly. You can't just drop a component in a system and hope that it will fix everything when the source of problem is still unidentified.

The gain issue is easily resolved with the optional higher output SUT, it's not standard on the demos which are pretty rare to begin with. I've come across this before, often people have a psychological issue with turning the the volume knob up to 2, 3 or 4 o'clock position from their usual comfort zone, 10, 11, 12?, don't know if there's any sonic degradation with the Pass electronics but generally its not an issue with most unless you're driving the amps too hard to clipping.

david

It has been touched on why the Lamm did not work well in his system and not sure the the dealer bothered to waste Floyds time. 57.5db phono stage into a hard to drive 91db speaker with .2mv cartridge was never going to be near the optimum.
A bit like Floyd using the Ypsilon without the correct Ypsilon SUT.

Yours and Rockitmans X2's are very easy to drive and 95db gain. I would estimate that there would be at least 6db more usable gain in your systems, which is a lot.

Cheers

 

[DaveyF]

Unfortunately, I think that there are many cartridges on the market that simply do not put out enough output to work well with almost all phono stages! Tube phono stages in particular can suffer from noise when the cartridge output is insufficient. This is why I have not entertained so many well respected cartridges for my future cartridge replacement...knowing fun well that the darn cartridge output is just too small to elicit good sound from my tube phono stage. Like David said above, one also has to take into consideration the efficiency of the rest of the up stream system. If you are using low efficiency or medium efficiency speakers that plays into the equation. IMHO, just plunking gear into one's system is likely to result in a major disappointment and a costly one at that.

 

[bonzo75]

Can someone please explain the math? 0.2mv cart, 91db speakers, 57.5 db phono...what are the computations you are doing to calculate gain?

 

[MadFloyd]

Basically the A95 was a poor cart to audition the LP2.1 with given the standard 60dB step-up... I am sure you could have the 2.1 made with with the 70dB step up..but that's in material now.

I was concerned about this as well and asked David about it beforehand. Oh well.

 

[MadFloyd]

With all due respect everyone is jumping to conclusions without ever being in Ian's room knowing all the facts. Ian has a thread going on another site regarding his general dissatisfaction with his system and is trying out various electronics including a change of cords; that situation hasn't been resolved yet! The Lamm's high resolution could have simply exposed what's already wrong somewhere else in the system. Chris on the other hand is quite content with his system and the Lamm enhanced what was working properly. You can't just drop a component in a system and hope that it will fix everything when the source of problem is still unidentified.
david

That other thread is about wanting to introduce tubes somewhere in my (all solid state) system to incorporate a bit more dimension into the presentation and achieve something more like Al M.'s system (which I really enjoy). There is nothing 'wrong' with my system and many people who have heard it say it is the best system they've ever heard. I will remind everyone that this hobby is very subjective and presentations will vary substantially without any being 'wrong'.

In the same way that Christian found that injecting some tubes in his system (in his case the phono stage) improved dimensionality, I was merely trying to do the same. I also mention in the same thread that I have found a lot of what I was looking for in CAT (tube) amps. I'm sure that's not the only way to go about it - hence my wanting to try the Lamm phono with my Pass pre and amps.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Can someone please explain the math? 0.2mv cart, 91db speakers, 57.5 db phono...what are the computations you are doing to calculate gain?

the 'math' is not reliable.......it just gets you close.

for LOMC's (low output moving coil cartridges = .30mv or less) you need at least 66db-68db of gain, and 70db is better. preamp gain and speaker efficiency do enter into it and matter when you are on the edge of compatibility.

best to either have 70db of gain, or .50mv of output. then you are good to go whatever.

like anything like this; 'headroom' in the degree of gain you have results in ease and flow to the music. and most phono stages allow for lowering of gain, which typically lowers noise. you look for the best combination of the gain equation and lowest noise.

my dart pre has 2 phono stages both with 72db of gain....and still quiet as a tomb. dynamics to die for.

added note; I noticed I did not respond to your exact situation....0.2mv cart, 91db speakers, 57.5 db phono......first off, the speaker efficiency is only relative to the amp and preamp (volume pot) gain....it's not anything by itself (although more efficient speakers do require less gain from the pre and amp)....all three must be considered. with the right amp and preamp an 80 db efficient speaker will work with marginal gain phono and cartridge. 0.2mv cartridge I'd say might work with 64db of gain in a phono stage. that would be the minimum I would expect could be livable......and I've done that. 0.15mv would need at least 68db. for every 6 db you double the output (3db more gain is 50% more gain). so, for example, 0.20mv output with 70db of gain would equal 0.40mv output with 64db of gain.

 

[PeterA]

With all due respect everyone is jumping to conclusions without ever being in Ian's room knowing all the facts. Ian has a thread going on another site regarding his general dissatisfaction with his system and is trying out various electronics including a change of cords; that situation hasn't been resolved yet! The Lamm's high resolution could have simply exposed what's already wrong somewhere else in the system. Chris on the other hand is quite content with his system and the Lamm enhanced what was working properly. You can't just drop a component in a system and hope that it will fix everything when the source of problem is still unidentified.

The gain issue is easily resolved with the optional higher output SUT, it's not standard on the demos which are pretty rare to begin with. I've come across this before, often people have a psychological issue with turning the the volume knob up to 2, 3 or 4 o'clock position from their usual comfort zone, 10, 11, 12?, don't know if there's any sonic degradation with the Pass electronics but generally its not an issue with most unless you're driving the amps too hard to clipping.

david

David, I'm a bit late to this thread. I have heard Ian's system many times. It has the highest resolution of any system that I have ever heard, and, depending on the recording, it is utterly natural and convincing sounding. In it's latest iteration, which is with the all Pass XS electronics, I don't hear something "wrong somewhere else in the system." In my opinion, he has a very challenging room, but he is aware of its limitations and is willing to live with the compromises to hear the music while in the kitchen and elsewhere in the house. I think the room is keeping him from hearing the full potential of his system.

When I listened with Ian and Christian to their respective systems, I got the impression that they are both "content" with their systems. I don't understand the implication that Ian's system is not "working properly". I did not read this in Ian's posts. As long as I've known Ian, he has always tried different components to learn what they might do differently in the context of his system. This seems to be a big part of the hobby for Ian and I don't think it is dissimilar to those in the hobby who have multiple cartridges, or turntables for the occasional different flavor. We all know that different components do some things better than others and that no component is perfect. Christian is keeping two phono stages (and turntables and cartridges) for, I presume, the same reason.

It's too bad that Ian did not get a demo unit with the appropriate gain for his particular cartridge. I think that he did inquire with the dealer at the time about this issue. And I am sorry that I did not have a chance to hear this Lamm phono in his system. I did hear his Lamm amps a few times.

I have not experienced Ian's Pass electronics, or my lower level Pass electronics, having any "sonic degradation" with increased volume. Nor have I have ever heard either of our Pass amps clipping.

 

[ddk]

This is directly from Ian's thread and how it starts, I can only go by what I read.

"Lately I've been dissatisfied with my system."

"At first I thought it was a passing thing, but it has persisted for a few weeks and I'm starting to consider a change. Yeah, I know, familiar audiophile story."

"In my system, images are like flat, cardboard cutouts. In this other system, they appear round (something I've always equated with tubes) but have no lack of transients or detail. Also, quiet parts of classical music (e.g. obo or flute, bassoon etc) sound much more engaging."

Regarding the gain, I'm not doubting what Ian heard I just can't figure out why he never reached satisfactory loudness in his system when he has ample power and gain with his preamp, even if he had to crank it up somewhat. Ian's Magicos are more or less a benign load and not that inefficient. I understand why he prefers his ZYX over the Ortofon but as far as output goes there's only a tiny difference between the two. Vladimir is using an A90 with LP2.1, LL1 who's 18 watt ML2.2 SET and Wilson Max 3 without any issues. Another client with Lohengrin IIS/Lamm ML2/Lamm L2/Lamm LP2/A90 has enough gain. A95/LP1/LL1/ML3 and Kharma Exquites another client's system with sufficient gain. Based on this I never thought that there wouldn't enough gain for the trial. Unfortunately fact remains that at the end of the day he wasn't satisfied, whatever the reason; and we can always revisit the Lamm again in the future if Ian wishes it.

That other thread is about wanting to introduce tubes somewhere in my (all solid state) system to incorporate a bit more dimension into the presentation and achieve something more like Al M.'s system (which I really enjoy). There is nothing 'wrong' with my system and many people who have heard it say it is the best system they've ever heard. I will remind everyone that this hobby is very subjective and presentations will vary substantially without any being 'wrong'.

In the same way that Christian found that injecting some tubes in his system (in his case the phono stage) improved dimensionality, I was merely trying to do the same. I also mention in the same thread that I have found a lot of what I was looking for in CAT (tube) amps. I'm sure that's not the only way to go about it - hence my wanting to try the Lamm phono with my Pass pre and amps.

David, I'm a bit late to this thread. I have heard Ian's system many times. It has the highest resolution of any system that I have ever heard, and, depending on the recording, it is utterly natural and convincing sounding. In it's latest iteration, which is with the all Pass XS electronics, I don't hear something "wrong somewhere else in the system." In my opinion, he has a very challenging room, but he is aware of its limitations and is willing to live with the compromises to hear the music while in the kitchen and elsewhere in the house. I think the room is keeping him from hearing the full potential of his system.

When I listened with Ian and Christian to their respective systems, I got the impression that they are both "content" with their systems. I don't understand the implication that Ian's system is not "working properly". I did not read this in Ian's posts. As long as I've known Ian, he has always tried different components to learn what they might do differently in the context of his system. This seems to be a big part of the hobby for Ian and I don't think it is dissimilar to those in the hobby who have multiple cartridges, or turntables for the occasional different flavor. We all know that different components do some things better than others and that no component is perfect. Christian is keeping two phono stages (and turntables and cartridges) for, I presume, the same reason.

It's too bad that Ian did not get a demo unit with the appropriate gain for his particular cartridge. I think that he did inquire with the dealer at the time about this issue. And I am sorry that I did not have a chance to hear this Lamm phono in his system. I did hear his Lamm amps a few times.

I have not experienced Ian's Pass electronics, or my lower level Pass electronics, having any "sonic degradation" with increased volume. Nor have I have ever heard either of our Pass amps clipping.

david

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks Mike

 

[microstrip]

Can someone please explain the math? 0.2mv cart, 91db speakers, 57.5 db phono...what are the computations you are doing to calculate gain?

As usual the math is very simple - just use the definition gain(dB) = 20 x log (vout/vin ) and add them to compute final gain. Lazy people can use one of the many online calculators, such as http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-amplification.htm or http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Decibels-Calculator.phtml.

Once you want start mixing analog and digital matters become complicated. Digital equipment specifies output voltage at maximum level - often referred as the 0dB level - and analog cartridges specify output voltage at 5cm/s peak velocity, that is not maximum peak velocity. See for example this graph from "The Art of Linear Electronics" by John Linsley Hood on the subject of headroom of phono preamplifiers. What is the velocity you should introduce in the calculation to get the gain of your chain?

The cartridge sensitivities, if specified at the same velocity, can be however used for relative comparison. IMHO it is why we always need to know from others experience and the advice of a knowledgeable person is sometimes more valuable than arguing with absolute numbers and specs.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am far from an expert here so I defer to David and Mike. But it seems to me that a .2mv MC cartridge with a 60 dB gain phono stage is almost asking for trouble.

My Io has maximum gain of 80dB, and I would not consider any MC generating less than .4 mv. In fact, since the Air Tight Opus produces .5 mv, while the PC-1 Supreme and the MSL Eminent EX both produce .4 mv, I think it is fairly easy for me to conclude that, slight sonic differences among those three cartridges aside, simply having that extra bit of output, and taking a little high-gain tube noise pressure off the Io (which may be a little tube noise prone), might make the Opus the way for me to go.

PS: Ian, I think your project of injecting greater dimensionality and other tube benefits into your system is a worthwhile endeavor. Even among solid-state aficionados there is a line of thought that supports the idea of having tubes somewhere in the signal path.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Even among solid-state aficionados there is a line of thought that supports the idea of having tubes somewhere in the signal path.

Very true. But the main trouble is that once you open the door of your system to the tube virus you risk that the disease spreads along the system.

At some recent time I had around 70 tubes in my listening room ...