Lamm ML3 + LL1, at last!

[Tango]

I have two other pairs in better condition, one pair looks as if it left the factory yesterday.

david

Damn. Your vaults are like Area 52, Mr.Karmeli.


Tang

 

[ddk]

Damn. Your vaults are like Area 52, Mr.Karmeli.


Tang

I started young!

david

 

[morricab]

Vitavox is very close to Khorn and they licensed the design, the difference is in the quality and the execution, Hartsfields are very different. When I say ground up, Vitavox built their own cabinets and designed their drivers with that cabinet in mind, it's a comprehensive design. Probably why the same drivers lack the same energy and drive in the Vox Olympian!

david

How would you rate the Vitavox speakers in the grand scheme of things, as compared to say, the JBL Hartsfield or maybe those big M9500s you have? I am assuming they don't reach the levels of your Bionor system but I would curious to know where they fall down in comparison.

 

[ddk]

How would you rate the Vitavox speakers in the grand scheme of things, as compared to say, the JBL Hartsfield or maybe those big M9500s you have? I am assuming they don't reach the levels of your Bionor system but I would curious to know where they fall down in comparison.

The thread is completely OT maybe Steve can move this last group of posts to it's own vintage speaker thread!

It's a tough one Brad because I like all 3 speakers equally, the big difference is in the bass. Hartsfields have a warmer fuller sound that endears them to a lot of people and aren't that picky with the electronics. Vitavox has a more neutral balance and electronics really matter. With corner horns the room boundary has a direct effect on the sound, their presentation as expected is very forward and visceral specially with the Vitavox, turn the volume up a bit and you're the Memorex man. M9500 is a modern free standing speaker with layering behind the speakers as much as in front. They need a bit more power than the corner horns to come to life but not much more. Unlike the other two the M9500 can sound great with both SS and tube electronics, IMO vintage horns are unlistenable even with the best SS amplification. It comes down to one's personal tastes, preferences, room and current electronics, not many people have two identical corners these days.

david

 

[morricab]

The thread is completely OT maybe Steve can move this last group of posts to it's own vintage speaker thread!

It's a tough one Brad because I like all 3 speakers equally, the big difference is in the bass. Hartsfields have a warmer fuller sound that endears them to a lot of people and aren't that picky with the electronics. Vitavox has a more neutral balance and electronics really matter. With corner horns the room boundary has a direct effect on the sound, their presentation as expected is very forward and visceral specially with the Vitavox, turn the volume up a bit and you're the Memorex man. M9500 is a modern free standing speaker with layering behind the speakers as much as in front. They need a bit more power than the corner horns to come to life but not much more. Unlike the other two the M9500 can sound great with both SS and tube electronics, IMO vintage horns are unlistenable even with the best SS amplification. It comes down to one's personal tastes, preferences, room and current electronics, not many people have two identical corners these days.

david

Do your Hartsfields have the 075 tweeter or are they a two-way

 

[ddk]

Do your Hartsfields have the 075 tweeter or are they a two-way

I've had 7 different pairs of Hartsfield over the years, with and without the tweeter also early and late cabinets which are slightly different. Sonically they're all close, of course with the tweeter you have more extension on top but with a frequency cutoff of up to 800hz the character of all these speakers is defined by the woofer, mid horn and tweeter are only complimentary to that character.

david

 

[christoph]

Looks like the Vitavox is generating interest here and I'm getting emails regarding the bogus Arizona ad with questions about purchasing them. Again those ads are phony, they stole the pictures from one of my old photography sites that I used for sharing pictures with potential clients. Aside from the NOS aspect everything about the ad is fake.

https://pbase.com/ddk/vitavox_cn-191

david

Could I convert my pair of LV AirScouts into a CN-191?
The mid driver and the horn appear to be the same...

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Could I convert my pair of LV AirScouts into a CN-191?
The mid driver and the horn appear to be the same...

I think you have an S2 in your AirScouts Christoph. Do you know what the bass driver is? I assume it is an AK 150 or 151? If so you do have the drivers - and they are mighty fine drivers!! You might be able to get the CN191 cabinet new from Vitavox as they still build it from what I can see - well they outsource it I am sure but still under their name.

 

[ddk]

Could I convert my pair of LV AirScouts into a CN-191?
The mid driver and the horn appear to be the same...

Theoretically yes but not in practice! The vintage CN-191 cabinets are a lot more valuable and rarer than the reproduction drivers in the Air Scout. That LV horn can’t be used either, it rings like a bell and has a very strange annoying resonance you need to deal with in the CN-191, better off getting an original one !

david

 

[christoph]

I think you have an S2 in your AirScouts Christoph. Do you know what the bass driver is? I assume it is an AK 150 or 151? If so you do have the drivers - and they are mighty fine drivers!! You might be able to get the CN191 cabinet new from Vitavox as they still build it from what I can see - well they outsource it I am sure but still under their name.

I think the bass driver is a 12 inch Italian Faital driver.
is the CN 191 only a two way speaker?
The AirScout has JBL 2405 slit tweeters in addition...

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I think the bass driver is a 12 inch Italian Faital driver.
is the CN 191 only a two way speaker?
The AirScout has JBL 2405 slit tweeters in addition...

Evening Chris. Yes the CN 191 is a 2 way using the S2 and AK151 15” woofer. 2nd order crossover. Whole thing is horn loade giving 105dB.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Evening Chris. Yes the CN 191 is a 2 way using the S2 and AK151 15” woofer. 2nd order crossover. Whole thing is horn loade giving 105dB.

If you are wondering - it is good to 16khz since no tweeter and s2 extends to 16khz

 

[microstrip]

I find embarrassing that every time we refer to any component or cable to be used with the ML3 it ends in an interesting talk about vintage, but almost no recommendations about current top gear that can be used with them.

My main fight with the ML3 / XLF pairing is finding an optimal speaker cable. XLFs love my Transparent Opus MM2 , that makes a great match with either conrad johnson, VTL or Lamm M1.2. But in my experience it does not seem to be a good choice with the ML3.

I do not listen or care for Warp9, power is not an issue for me.

 

[Tango]

My main fight with the ML3 / XLF pairing is finding an optimal speaker cable. XLFs love my Transparent Opus MM2 , that makes a great match with either conrad johnson, VTL or Lamm M1.2. But in my experience it does not seem to be a good choice with the ML3.

I do not listen or care for Warp9, power is not an issue for me.

What exactly do you find lacking with your current speaker cables using with the ML3. You never really described the sound of ML3 given your setup since start of this thread...only very vaguely. Maybe you enjoy debating more. So people started talking something else.

kind regards,
Tang

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I find embarrassing that every time we refer to any component or cable to be used with the ML3 it ends in an interesting talk about vintage, but almost no recommendations about current top gear that can be used with them.

My main fight with the ML3 / XLF pairing is finding an optimal speaker cable. XLFs love my Transparent Opus MM2 , that makes a great match with either conrad johnson, VTL or Lamm M1.2. But in my experience it does not seem to be a good choice with the ML3.

I do not listen or care for Warp9, power is not an issue for me.

as a 10 year owner of Transparent Opus MM speakers cables, even owning 2 pair of them for a year, i have a theory about why they were not an ideal match for the ML3's.

i used the Opus MM speaker cables with Wilson WP 6.0's, the Kharma Exquisite 1D, the Von Schweikert VR9SE, and the Evolution Acoustics MM3's. so across a wide variety of speaker systems. the Opus MM seemed to be very slightly dark on top, and bring an extra dollop of dimensional bass sexiness. it was always organic and cohesive sounding. loved those cables.

as those are also plainly attributes of the ML3's, it's just too much of a good thing.

we can love the character of gear, but sometimes it's better for the gear to not have any of it's own. ML3's need cables to just get out of the way.

 

[microstrip]

What exactly do you find lacking with your current speaker cables using with the ML3. You never really described the sound of ML3 given your setup since start of this thread...only very vaguely. Maybe you enjoy debating more. So people started talking something else.

kind regards,
Tang

Dear Tang,

I will describe the sound of the ML3 with more detail when I think that my system is allowing it to play at its full capacity. Describing sound quality problems due to inadequate pairing or my lack of expertise to optimize the system would be unfair. My Opus MM2 are not tuned to SET.This has always been my position in this hobby.

And yes, I really enjoy debating the fundamentals and the reasons behind preferences. Just arguing mine sounds better than yours is not interesting for me.

 

[microstrip]

as a 10 year owner of Transparent Opus MM speakers cables, even owning 2 pair of them for a year, i have a theory about why they were not an ideal match for the ML3's.

i used the Opus MM speaker cables with Wilson WP 6.0's, the Kharma Exquisite 1D, the Von Schweikert VR9SE, and the Evolution Acoustics MM3's. so across a wide variety of speaker systems. the Opus MM seemed to be very slightly dark on top, and bring an extra dollop of dimensional bass sexiness. it was always organic and cohesive sounding. loved those cables.

as those are also plainly attributes of the ML3's, it's just too much of a good thing.

we can love the character of gear, but sometimes it's better for the gear to not have any of it's own. ML3's need cables to just get out of the way.

Thanks - I had though about it, I even wrote similar things about the Opus, but your word "organic" summarizes it beautifully. It is why I asked for experience of users!

Do you remember that I tried to buy your Opus MM2 but someone was faster than me?

 

[ddk]

ML3's need cables to just get out of the way.

david

 

[Ron Resnick]

(I promise I am not starting an argument here!) I wonder if somehow the Transparent Audio network boxes soak up a little bit of the precious (little) power the ML3s produce?

 

[Steve Williams]

Steve’s in New Zealand. Not planning on moving threads as I’m having too much fun here for the past 17 days. I don’t get home for another 2 days