Live music, Tone and Presence: What most systems get wrong

The thing with something like a proper restored apogee or WE is you will never see hear it unless you are making a specific effort to listen to it only.

And even then, you've got guys debating the virtues of tungar vs selenium vs mercury vapor rectifiers, caps vs no caps, rotative style rheostat vs sliding type, Motiograph vs Western Electric vs RCA - and all for a fricken field-coil supply that's not even in the signal chain.

"Proper"? It depends, right?
 
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IMO, most SS amps are victims of their complexity. They have too many active parts, that all contribute to distortion and smearing of the signal. Push/pull, unless fully Class A also has zero crossing distortion and regardless of how small or insiginifcant the make claims it is, it is still an audible problem. Distortion patterns tell the story as well as anything. It is pretty clear from psychoacoustics that some patterns are worse than others. Since NO amplifier has zero distortion and no pattern, then the pattern of each piece in the electronics chain matters. Designers use negative feedback to clean it up and make pretty measurements but they exaccerbate the pattern problem. There is also a sonic phenomenon that I have yet to put a finger on why it is happening but it has to do with negative feedback and damping. It seems to rein in dynamic experession, particularly microdyanmics. This could be in part to what Crowhurst is referring to when he talks about a signal correlated noise floor obscurring low level signal. Maybe this has the perceptual effect of making dynamics seem lessened because the small stuff is not reproduced correctly.
I appreciate your thoughts as always, Brad.

You can also argue that high THD and amount of 2nd harmonic distortion in SETs is very audible. That's why I feel that to properly use SET, you need 96-98db+ speakers. I also find it interesting that KR Audio isn't traditionally loved by SET fans. So even among friends, there are differences :)

FWIW, Jack Roberts has been a SET guy for 20 years - and a Pass XA30.8 replaced his Wavac EC300B on 100db speakers. Two years later he hasn't returned. I think that says a lot about where SS has come and he's a big live music/jazz guy outside of the listening room. He's not the only one behind the scenes either.

Valvet, First Watt, Dartzeel, Lavardin, etc are all quite simple SS amps so there are plenty of cool options to explore. Like you, I look for simple circuits without negative feedback - although Luxman tends to do something with their Class A/NF that is different from the others.
 
Hi

Struggled mightily not to get in this debate... have to :)

I find many of these views too absolutist to not interject. I do find more and more things to like about SS (same with digital :D) ... having for more than 30 years been in the Tube camp and having moved about 15 years ago to the SS I fail to see what the better SS are lacking. Things have converged to the point where the best SS get the best of both worlds: Burmester, Spectral, Gryphon, Pass, DartZeel, Soulution, Balaboo, Lamm, Boulder, Bryston, Ayre bring a lot on the table and take no back seat to what tubes do. There are perhaps brands that I have heard but forget in this list BTW. Things to me are at point where SS is as good and present mostly advantages when compared to any tubes. The bizarre exceptions are some OTL which tend to sound as good as SS on speakers that would end to require the power of and stability of SS and retain a beguiling and quite unique flavor .. I am naming 2 with which I have heard enough to be able to form an opinion: the Joule Electra and the Atmasphere. They're good and they get what tubes do right; I don't see what they give up to tubes in any regards while they have the kind of bass that only megapower tubes (and not all of these) manage to reproduce.
Now we have spoken about things that at the end are view of the mind: "presence", "Tonality" I am all for subjective impressions but the notion of "presence" or "tonality" perception is at best unreliable. Getting to the point of looking at microphones as single ended devices is forgetting that the recording is made by more than the microphones especially when a console is put in the mix (pun intended), the EQ that follows plus the quasi-present manipulations known as "mastering" in what ways the SET preserve the single ended-ness of the eventual single-ended microphone??
Live music is so far out of the capabilities of any home system, it is a miracle that our audio systems manage to bring up the same emotions Live Music elicit... then again we can cry from listening to our favorite music being reproduced by a clock radio .. so ... I can understand why a person would be taken by the editorializing that some systems can perform. There is no right and wrong in a person preference after all. Other systems are truer to the source and those are what I prefer and this is what IMO the best SS do: Be truer to the source.


Beautiful!
 
Did you mean a USB key? The best way would probably have been to copy those files to the computer HDD or SSD and stream the audio was USB to an external DAC rather than to rely on Airplay (Wi-Fi receivers can be very noisy, not to mention Airplay maxes out quite low rate-wise).

I am sure you are right. I just have never "played" a chip before. Since that session, I have found that the Yamaha pre/pro has a USB port for just this purpose. I did transcribe the files to the computer, later put them on a chip to test the USB port, and yes, they sounded better fed directly to the pre. Over Airplay, they sent an analog signal using the mac mini built in DAC (no slouch, as it seems) rather than the better Sabre dacs of the Yamaha pre/pro.

The mac mini does not use a solid state drive, it has a hard drive. I did think that the solid state USB drive sounded better and is probably the way to play digital files nowadays vs. disc or hard drive.

Still, he really liked the files played Airplay however. An Airplay digital signal to the Yamaha pre is quite a decent playback (for digital).

So, my luddite ass has been dragged into the chip playing era, so there's that. I may transcribe my digital music to solid state chips because they have decent storage capacity now.
 
Absolutism and relativism are invariably going to be at odds. The instant we choose to make a subjective evaluation we might have to let up on the whole 'I am right and the people who disagree with me are therefore wrong' thing. That is only ever going to have any real validity in a more objective type of criteria.

What is more subjective and less absolute than discussing what is natural, or how we gauge the sense of presence in music.

It would suggest a lovely patch of maturation and also just be more cool for us to simply get in the habit of replacing the 'this is better/best' with a more modest 'I prefer'. As for any absolute best in presence or tonality... if this could be established in a subjective comparison then we probably would simply be poorer for the lack of diversity that this might suggest and also for a failure for us to recognise that we are richer as people when we champion the value of diverse perspectives. But I'm not the first here to suggest that the horse just not be flogged anymore without relent and hopefully not the last.

For someone to prefer SS on ribbons or SET on horns is not an inflammatory thing but to demand that one of these is absolutely better is. Your data point is always going to be skewed by your preference.

In my experience the preference may come down to not just about what qualities you prefer but rather which constraints you can then live with.

In the spirit of simple preference, of those I have heard I also prefer SET for full range horns and generally don't prefer hybrid SS or push pull as much as full SET with valve rectification for horns. This seems to me the least synthetic combination for horns and can provide a starting sense of presence through scale and dynamics with natural tone especially if the horns are similar types (preferably front loaded) and the bass and mid horns are also timber (for the resonance that brings) rather than fibreglass. Just a preference as fibreglass or composite horns have their own virtues in other ways. The potential for being more genre specific is the main constraint that I have found with horns with SET but if you only love the music that they do best then that is no compromise. If you love a greater variety of music types then you might not live with this constraint.

I am also among those that prefer SS amps to drive full range ribbons but then also with valves somewhere upstream in either the source or preamp. For me ribbons are at their best when they are being linear and extended as well as spatially and temporally coherent. The best full range ribbon setups can put you in the seat of the musical experience full of presence and also build towards an experience that is at times approaching more life-like in context or in sonic terms as well as still having the engagement of presence in musical terms. But most of all they present to me as less genre limited this way in both sonic and musical terms. Just solely my preferences and in respect I can and do genuinely value and relate and learn from the preference of others here.Viva la difference.
 
Tao, agree with every word you wrote. SETs for horns, and SS for ribbons, with valves up the chain. After hearing a few SETs on ribbons, I am puzzled by those who provide these recommendations. Completely agree with the genre limitations and lack of.
 
and unfortunately for me the best of both worlds is actually both worlds... Full range panels of ribbons in a near field setup upstairs and then full range set of horns on SET downstairs. I had that for a couple of months when the Animas were in the house. Still missing them completely... sigh
 
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Tao, agree with every word you wrote. SETs for horns, and SS for ribbons, with valves up the chain. After hearing a few SETs on ribbons, I am puzzled by those who provide these recommendations. Completely agree with the genre limitations and lack of.

Might I ask why SETs should not be used for ribbons? I've never heard of this, and two of the most glorious set-ups I've heard with my loudspeakers have been Wavac and Viva Aurora.

At the moment, I'm rocking a pair of 32W Viva Auroras on my Genesis Fortes......
 
Might I ask why SETs should not be used for ribbons? I've never heard of this, and two of the most glorious set-ups I've heard with my loudspeakers have been Wavac and Viva Aurora.

At the moment, I'm rocking a pair of 32W Viva Auroras on my Genesis Fortes......

I was referring more to the Apogees. They sound best with loads of class A current and SS. I did like the Tube Research Labs but that wasn't a SET. I have heard the Analysis Audio sound good with NAT Transmitters

I have not heard the Wavac and Viva on such speakers, but hope to soon hear the Viva on an Alexandria X1.
 
Hi

Struggled mightily not to get in this debate... have to :)

I find many of these views too absolutist to not interject. I do find more and more things to like about SS (same with digital :D) ... having for more than 30 years been in the Tube camp and having moved about 15 years ago to the SS I fail to see what the better SS are lacking. Things have converged to the point where the best SS get the best of both worlds: Burmester, Spectral, Gryphon, Pass, DartZeel, Soulution, Balaboo, Lamm, Boulder, Bryston, Ayre bring a lot on the table and take no back seat to what tubes do. There are perhaps brands that I have heard but forget in this list BTW. Things to me are at point where SS is as good and present mostly advantages when compared to any tubes. The bizarre exceptions are some OTL which tend to sound as good as SS on speakers that would end to require the power of and stability of SS and retain a beguiling and quite unique flavor .. I am naming 2 with which I have heard enough to be able to form an opinion: the Joule Electra and the Atmasphere. They're good and they get what tubes do right; I don't see what they give up to tubes in any regards while they have the kind of bass that only megapower tubes (and not all of these) manage to reproduce.
Now we have spoken about things that at the end are view of the mind: "presence", "Tonality" I am all for subjective impressions but the notion of "presence" or "tonality" perception is at best unreliable. Getting to the point of looking at microphones as single ended devices is forgetting that the recording is made by more than the microphones especially when a console is put in the mix (pun intended), the EQ that follows plus the quasi-present manipulations known as "mastering" in what ways the SET preserve the single ended-ness of the eventual single-ended microphone??
Live music is so far out of the capabilities of any home system, it is a miracle that our audio systems manage to bring up the same emotions Live Music elicit... then again we can cry from listening to our favorite music being reproduced by a clock radio .. so ... I can understand why a person would be taken by the editorializing that some systems can perform. There is no right and wrong in a person preference after all. Other systems are truer to the source and those are what I prefer and this is what IMO the best SS do: Be truer to the source.


Systems that are closer to the reality can evoke emotional response and do so from time to time (I won't say regularly because even live music doesn't do that). I like how people on this forum and others will call a system "editorializing" when it is "too" tonally rich. What I heard recently says just the opposite! Most systems are far too harmonically lean (Threadbare was the term used in the past) compared to the real thing. ) It's kind of like that old saying, "I can't define pornography but I know it when I see it!" . The same goes for tonality and presence. I can state, unequivocally, that I have never heard an all SS system that could deliver harmonic richness along with clarity and presence like I heard with that small cello duo. I am sure that there are good enough recordings (I have some) that capture harmonics like this and presence like this and it is therefore POTENTIALLY reproduceable at home. I have heard only a very few all tube systems that could get in the same post code...very few. Why??

I have a good idea as to why the electronics cannot deliver and it relates to distortion and psychoacoustics...it is of course like all things human related a statistical approach because correlating measurements with perception always ends up that way. However, it can be demonstrated that most humans would prefer to not have high order harmonic distortion in their music and if it is present it has to be weighted with the correct pattern of low order harmonics. This is from evolution it is how most humans ear/brains work. People can acquire a contrary taste for something through exposure but it doesn't change the bascis for most people. Therefore, there is a biologically correct distortion pattern that will lead to less audible consequences to the fact that we do not have perfectly linear amplification that makes no disotortion. Note, I didn't say Euphonic distortions I said less audible.

What do I think that this means? Based on my reading and interpretation of the studies available, there is a more correct way to design amplifiers that conforms better with the way humans hear distortion and judge it in terms of sound quality. There is a more right answer, in other words. Is it absolute? No, because as I said people will be contrary. I also think that those with good hearing memory for what they heard live, and I think this varies wildly among audiophiles, are also good a translating that experience into hifi decisions. There is an absolute sound and while no recording/playback system (note: I include the recording as part of the system) gets it right, there is closer and there is further away and this can be determined from careful listening and observation of differernces...i don't think this is purely subjectivist because a careful observer can make quite objective observations.

Now, that said, no single amplification devices is either perfectly linear OR perfectly following a distortion pattern (that also includes SPL) that will make it sound truly invisible...this is where subjective taste becomes important. However, most amplification devices are far enough away that it is rather easy to discredit their approach to reproduction. They are inherently wrong by design. They produce distortion patterns that are not consonant with how our ear/brain evloved and therefore standout like a sore thumb. Once you have heard what is wrong you cannot unhear it. I hear it in every SS and tube Class AB push/pull amp. It is a lack of coherence and an overlay of something...unnatural. It takes longer to hear with Class A SS with no feedback or Class A triode with no feedback...but you eventually hear it there as well. It hinders presence, affects tonality and impacts clarity. A good way to hear the effects of negative feedback is to get hold of an amp that has variable feedback, preferrably one that has "zero" as an option. THat is a real eyeopener. Adding feedback invariably, reduces palpability and flattens soundstage, lessens contrast in tonal colors (greys things out) and lessens dynamic contrasts. Leading edges might get a bit sharper but overally clarity is not improved. The only added benefit in some cases is a tighter, punchier bass...that often sounds less natural because it sounds truncated. Once you do some of these tests it becomes rather clear.

I like the sound of OTLs...I used to own a big pair of monos from Silvaweld. They had shocking transparency and dynamics but tone was too lean to be convincing. They also overheated the room and were a bitch to keep biased, so they were only optimal about half of the time. One of my dream amps might be an OTL SET without feedback (Aries Cerat makes one but it is HUGE and makes a massive amount of heat) but as far as I know only one choice that meets all criteria exists.

Speakers are another kettle of fish and how the amp interacts with them is another key to the puzzle. The interactions with complex impedance will lead to additional, and unpleasant, distortions, especially with amplifiers that have a high negative feedback. Most amps will work better with a speaker with a relatively resistive load and it is one probable cause for highly variable observations of some amps because the speaker interaction is affecting the sound so much. Speakers of course will flavor the sound, even if their FR is perfect because of driver and cabinet resonances and distortions from crossover networks, phase shifts etc. A perfect speaker is even more remote than a perfect set of electronics. More room here for personal preference I think.


Microphones are single ended...microphone amps are mostly not but I am sure that some out there are. It is not an issue to make small signal amplifiers from single ended circuits.
 
I have to agree with you on the ES300 of the early 90's with chamber music - really holographic and realistic, although limited bass and loudness. The details had a natural airiness and unbelievable presence. Curiously I have witnessed a similar degree of presence, but not the filigree to such high level, with the old planar Soundlab's (A4) and the Wilson Audio XLF.

The B&W Silver Signature driven by Atmasphere OTLs and my current Soundlab's also can have great presence, but in a very different way - the became believable by the way they dispose the energy in the soundstage and sounding natural, not by the extreme detail.

Yes, it was restricted but in a smallish room you can good enough volume from them to be satisfying. What bothered me to sell mine was the Venetian blind effect. It irritated me. I finally solved that with Acoustat Spectras. Not quite as transparent or WOW, but really well balanced and long-term enjoyable.

The Silver Signatures were the first and only B&W speaker that I like. I have heard them sound surprisingly holographic and I can imagine with OTLs that being greatly heightened.
 
Yeah, I think that's true Bonzo. I think the reason vinyl, SETs and horns garner such a love/hate polemic amongst the audiophile community in particular is that the inherent variables, including, but not limited to implementation and setup become much more system dependent than plug-and-play options like, say, a full Naim or Burmester system.

Again, I think it touches on the increased volatility of systems in which asymmetries create payoffs (positive and/or negative) disproportionate to the value of the variable. God is in the details, as they say.

I remember the old Stereophile review of the Infinity IRS Beta where they had like 3 different versions on hand and all three sounded quite differernt! All three were supposedly commercial versions as well! Consistency in speakers can be really tough.
 
I was stuck on this sentence for a few seconds...

"has zero-crossing distortion" is probably what you meant.

Written as quoted, it could mean "0 crossing-distortion" which is the opposite.

Yes you are right Zero-crossing distortion is what I meant.
 
I appreciate your thoughts as always, Brad.

You can also argue that high THD and amount of 2nd harmonic distortion in SETs is very audible. That's why I feel that to properly use SET, you need 96-98db+ speakers. I also find it interesting that KR Audio isn't traditionally loved by SET fans. So even among friends, there are differences :)

FWIW, Jack Roberts has been a SET guy for 20 years - and a Pass XA30.8 replaced his Wavac EC300B on 100db speakers. Two years later he hasn't returned. I think that says a lot about where SS has come and he's a big live music/jazz guy outside of the listening room. He's not the only one behind the scenes either.

Valvet, First Watt, Dartzeel, Lavardin, etc are all quite simple SS amps so there are plenty of cool options to explore. Like you, I look for simple circuits without negative feedback - although Luxman tends to do something with their Class A/NF that is different from the others.

It has been shown though that 2nd order harmonics are not audible up to about 2% for pure sine waves. For real music it will be harder to hear. Most SETs can deliver their rated power with around 3% THD. Of that, about 2% will be 2nd order and maybe 0.7% will be 3rd harmonic and followed on by the higher harmonics at decreasing level. I would say within their defined range, it will not be so audible. What is more likely to be audible is distortion created from the transformer saturation that will affect things well up into the midrange.

Not sure what Jack is hearing. I haven't heard a Pass amp yet that I would want to live with.

I have already dismissed darTZeel, doesn't get tone right, IMO. The others I haven't tried.
 
Brad, I don't disagree that many systems are lean. I need things to be today rich and bodied.

Now, you mentioned Dartzeel and Pass. Which models, where, what speakers? The details matter.
 
Tao, agree with every word you wrote. SETs for horns, and SS for ribbons, with valves up the chain. After hearing a few SETs on ribbons, I am puzzled by those who provide these recommendations. Completely agree with the genre limitations and lack of.

Puzzled? In what way?
 
Puzzled? In what way?

There is no drive, or oomph. The speakers don't come alive. And I am not referring to the bass. Just the general soundstage, vocals, seem like another speaker, and not the life I hear at Henk's or even at Justin's with the Parasound (the Parasound does many things wrong, and it is not the ideal SS amp by far, but it makes the speaker jump to life).
 
and unfortunately for me the best of both worlds is actually both worlds... Full range panels of ribbons in a near field setup upstairs and then full range set of horns on SET downstairs. I had that for a couple of months when the Animas were in the house. Still missing them completely... sigh

In a near field setup with ribbons good SETs will work very well. Have you tried KR Audio, NAT, Ayon or Aries Cerat on your Magnepans? The best sound I ever heard from Magnepans was a pair of 1.6s driven by Audio Note P4 monos in a small room. 18 watts is plenty when you are less than 3 meters from a line source that has an easy impedance for the amps. The second best was the same speakers driven by 100 watt OTLs in the same room. Every other time I have heard Maggies it was somewhat disappointing...particluarly with Class D amps.

What were you driving the Animas with?
 

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