Live music, Tone and Presence: What most systems get wrong

[morricab]

You are referring to the old ones which I do not like. I am referring to certain restores.

I have found that many of the resoterd ones sound kind of bright. BTW, I heard Henk's Full Ranges but not his Grands this is true.

 

[bonzo75]

I have found that many of the resoterd ones sound kind of bright. BTW, I heard Henk's Full Ranges but not his Grands this is true.

I haven't heard any of them sound bright. In fact Ron, who is ultra sensitive to brightness, wanted more highs on the Grands.

That said, a crossover tweak can change it either way.

 

[Al M.]

IMO, most SS amps are victims of their complexity.

I agree.

But "most" is certainly not "all".

Obviously, we all have strong opinions -- very strong ones, in fact -- but we need to avoid a dogmatic attitude about things.

 

[morricab]

I agree.

But "most" is certainly not "all".

Obviously, we all have strong opinions -- very strong ones, in fact -- but we need to avoid a dogmatic attitude about things.

First Watt amps come to mind for simplicity and another one is Tellurium Q, neither of each have I heard.

 

[Al M.]

First Watt amps come to mind for simplicity and another one is Tellurium Q, neither of each have I heard.

Even SS amps that are complex are not necessarily victims of their complexity. Spectral comes to mind as one example.

 

[morricab]

Even SS amps that are complex are not necessarily victims of their complexity. Spectral comes to mind as one example.

I would not agree with spectral...tonally not right.

 

[Al M.]

I would not agree with spectral...tonally not right.

Depends on which Spectral. The newest generation is excellent.

 

[853guy]

Your description of the AudioStatic is perfect....the Acoustat's always sounded hollow/woolen to me. The Apogee's where not a favorite. Always seemed like they had to play loud to get going. When I visited Jason's to hear his reference set up I felt the same

You are referring to the old ones which I do not like. I am referring to certain restores.

I have found that many of the resoterd ones sound kind of bright. BTW, I heard Henk's Full Ranges but not his Grands this is true.

Depends on which Spectral. The newest generation is excellent.

Without wanting to be glib, "depends on which X" can be pretty much applied to every SET, PP amp, dynamic, panel, stat, horn, SS amp, idler, direct-drive, belt-drive, arm, cartridge, converter, cap, interconnect, coil, tube, transformer, speaker cable, fuse, and footer ever invented.

 

[bonzo75]

Without wanting to be glib, "depends on which X" can be pretty much applied to every SET, PP amp, dynamic, panel, stat, horn, SS amp, idler, direct-drive, belt-drive, arm, cartridge, converter, cap, interconnect, coil, tube, transformer, speaker cable, fuse, and footer ever invented.

Yes, which is why generic statements that SS can't do it only SET can makes as much sense as Madonna's Italians can do it better

 

[853guy]

Yes, which is why generic statements that SS can't do it only SET can makes as much sense as Madonna's Italians can do it better

Depends which Italians...

But enough with the wisecracks. Gentlemen, please continue.

 

[Al M.]

Without wanting to be glib, "depends on which X" can be pretty much applied to every SET, PP amp, dynamic, panel, stat, horn, SS amp, idler, direct-drive, belt-drive, arm, cartridge, converter, cap, interconnect, coil, tube, transformer, speaker cable, fuse, and footer ever invented.

Yup, often it is less the particular type of technology, but its proper implementation that is decisive. Time to get less dogmatic about all things audio.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Struggled mightily not to get in this debate... have to

I find many of these views too absolutist to not interject. I do find more and more things to like about SS (same with digital ) ... having for more than 30 years been in the Tube camp and having moved about 15 years ago to the SS I fail to see what the better SS are lacking. Things have converged to the point where the best SS get the best of both worlds: Burmester, Spectral, Gryphon, Pass, DartZeel, Soulution, Balaboo, Lamm, Boulder, Bryston, Ayre bring a lot on the table and take no back seat to what tubes do. There are perhaps brands that I have heard but forget in this list BTW. Things to me are at point where SS is as good and present mostly advantages when compared to any tubes. The bizarre exceptions are some OTL which tend to sound as good as SS on speakers that would end to require the power of and stability of SS and retain a beguiling and quite unique flavor .. I am naming 2 with which I have heard enough to be able to form an opinion: the Joule Electra and the Atmasphere. They're good and they get what tubes do right; I don't see what they give up to tubes in any regards while they have the kind of bass that only megapower tubes (and not all of these) manage to reproduce.
Now we have spoken about things that at the end are view of the mind: "presence", "Tonality" I am all for subjective impressions but the notion of "presence" or "tonality" perception is at best unreliable. Getting to the point of looking at microphones as single ended devices is forgetting that the recording is made by more than the microphones especially when a console is put in the mix (pun intended), the EQ that follows plus the quasi-present manipulations known as "mastering" in what ways the SET preserve the single ended-ness of the eventual single-ended microphone??
Live music is so far out of the capabilities of any home system, it is a miracle that our audio systems manage to bring up the same emotions Live Music elicit... then again we can cry from listening to our favorite music being reproduced by a clock radio .. so ... I can understand why a person would be taken by the editorializing that some systems can perform. There is no right and wrong in a person preference after all. Other systems are truer to the source and those are what I prefer and this is what IMO the best SS do: Be truer to the source.

 

[bonzo75]

Depends which Italians...

But enough with the wisecracks. Gentlemen, please continue.

That said, there are differences between models, and on the case of restores and DIY, between those. While a certain Wilson model (Sasha, Alexia) etc will be consistent across versions, restored apogees, DIY JBLs, and the western electrics will be inconsistent across models

 

[YashN]

As for simplicity of circuits, my push-pull triode amps are exemplary, and feature neither local nor global feedback.

Good for you, but all Push-Pull amps have internal phase-change, and the simplest PP still has a more complex circuit than the simplest Single-Ended Tube amp.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Interestingly, a planar speaker that was far more realistic than any Apogee that I have heard, at least for smaller music, was the old AudioStatic ES series (ES100, ES300). I had ES100s and they had PRESENCE and transparency. It was pretty amazing really. They projected in front and behind with the best of them. What they didn't have was a very natural tonal balance. Later models were better balanced but a bit less present. Now, one could probably DSP them to behave but probably at a cost to sonic purity. They also had a bit of Venetian blind effect with high frequencies that was kind of annoying but they did holographic in a way Apogee cannot...or at least in 15 years of hearing Apogees I have not heard. The other speaker that could do this in an amazing way was the STAX ELS-F81. I had a pair for a while and they were the ultimate low level listening speaker. Totally transparent down to very low volumes and super present and coherent. BUT, they were limited in loudness and in bass.
(...)

I have to agree with you on the ES300 of the early 90's with chamber music - really holographic and realistic, although limited bass and loudness. The details had a natural airiness and unbelievable presence. Curiously I have witnessed a similar degree of presence, but not the filigree to such high level, with the old planar Soundlab's (A4) and the Wilson Audio XLF.

The B&W Silver Signature driven by Atmasphere OTLs and my current Soundlab's also can have great presence, but in a very different way - the became believable by the way they dispose the energy in the soundstage and sounding natural, not by the extreme detail.

 

[YashN]

We listened to vinyl, and also some of his FLAC files that he brought on a USB chip. I was a little embarrassed because I didn't know how to play a USB chip, but finally got it to play on my mac mini by sending the signal to the Yamaha pre/pro over Airplay.

Did you mean a USB key? The best way would probably have been to copy those files to the computer HDD or SSD and stream the audio was USB to an external DAC rather than to rely on Airplay (Wi-Fi receivers can be very noisy, not to mention Airplay maxes out quite low rate-wise).

 

[853guy]

That said, there are differences between models, and on the case of restores and DIY, between those. While a certain Wilson model (Sasha, Alexia) etc will be consistent across versions, restored apogees, DIY JBLs, and the western electrics will be inconsistent across models

Yeah, I think that's true Bonzo. I think the reason vinyl, SETs and horns garner such a love/hate polemic amongst the audiophile community in particular is that the inherent variables, including, but not limited to implementation and setup become much more system dependent than plug-and-play options like, say, a full Naim or Burmester system.

Again, I think it touches on the increased volatility of systems in which asymmetries create payoffs (positive and/or negative) disproportionate to the value of the variable. God is in the details, as they say.

 

[bonzo75]

Yeah, I think that's true Bonzo. I think the reason vinyl, SETs and horns garner such a love/hate polemic amongst the audiophile community in particular is that the inherent variables, including, but not limited to implementation and setup become much more system dependent than plug-and-play options like, say, a full Naim or Burmester system.

Again, I think it touches on the increased volatility of systems in which asymmetries create payoffs (positive and/or negative) disproportionate to the value of the variable. God is in the details, as they say.

A bit different

Not liking vinyl is mainly lack of experience with either live or sufficient vinyl set ups. While I can understand some might not be set up properly, many will.

Also, if somebody is doing demo rounds, he will see enough vinyl anyway. The thing with something like a proper restored apogee or WE is you will never see/hear it unless you are making a specific effort to listen to it only.

 

[YashN]

Push/pull, unless fully Class A also has zero crossing distortion and regardless of how small or insiginifcant the make claims it is, it is still an audible problem.

I was stuck on this sentence for a few seconds...

"has zero-crossing distortion" is probably what you meant.

Written as quoted, it could mean "0 crossing-distortion" which is the opposite.

 

[Al M.]

Hi

Struggled mightily not to get in this debate... have to

I find many of these views too absolutist to not interject. I do find more and more things to like about SS (same with digital ) ... having for more than 30 years been in the Tube camp and having moved about 15 years ago to the SS I fail to see what the better SS are lacking. Things have converged to the point where the best SS get the best of both worlds: Burmester, Spectral, Gryphon, Pass, DartZeel, Soulution, Balaboo, Lamm, Boulder, Bryston, Ayre bring a lot on the table and take no back seat to what tubes do. There are perhaps brands that I have heard but forget in this list BTW. Things to me are at point where SS is as good and present mostly advantages when compared to any tubes. The bizarre exceptions are some OTL which tend to sound as good as SS on speakers that would end to require the power of and stability of SS and retain a beguiling and quite unique flavor .. I am naming 2 with which I have heard enough to be able to form an opinion: the Joule Electra and the Atmasphere. They're good and they get what tubes do right; I don't see what they give up to tubes in any regards while they have the kind of bass that only megapower tubes (and not all of these) manage to reproduce.
Now we have spoken about things that at the end are view of the mind: "presence", "Tonality" I am all for subjective impressions but the notion of "presence" or "tonality" perception is at best unreliable. Getting to the point of looking at microphones as single ended devices is forgetting that the recording is made by more than the microphones especially when a console is put in the mix (pun intended), the EQ that follows plus the quasi-present manipulations known as "mastering" in what ways the SET preserve the single ended-ness of the eventual single-ended microphone??
Live music is so far out of the capabilities of any home system, it is a miracle that our audio systems manage to bring up the same emotions Live Music elicit... then again we can cry from listening to our favorite music being reproduced by a clock radio .. so ... I can understand why a person would be taken by the editorializing that some systems can perform. There is no right and wrong in a person preference after all. Other systems are truer to the source and those are what I prefer and this is what IMO the best SS do: Be truer to the source.

Excellent post.

Indeed, absolutism and dogmatism alas run rampant in audio.