Exactly Gary! I started driving my planar speakers with 30 watt KR Audio VA350 and never looked back...it simply sounded better.
Live music, Tone and Presence: What most systems get wrong
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Exactly Gary! I started driving my planar speakers with 30 watt KR Audio VA350 and never looked back...it simply sounded better.
The main planar driver in Gary's speakers is not so different from an Apogee in terms of load or sensitivity (I know as I have made DIY speakers from the B&G planars). Of course Gary's speakers have built in bass amps so if bass is your main complaint his speakers have that covered.
I have heard NATs on two different Apogees (Grands and FRs), KR on Christoph's (wonderful tone), and Ayon Orthos in triode mode on Duettas. Ayon sounded best along with the tube research labs 200w amp at Lissnr's (brilliant simple system).
darTZeel: At the designer's home and three different shows.
Pass: Multiple people's houses and two local dealer at least 6 or 7 times. The details do not matter so much...the sound character was quite consistent.
Too much generalization. So Gryphon, Analysis, infinity, genesis, apogee, and Maggie are all same except for the powered bass
The Parasound A21 is a magical Apogee driver considering the cost. It really does wake a pair of Duettas up, but it becomes overbearing/overwhelming after extended periods of listening. A bit too Ferrari, if you like, in terms of performance. Too much of a "hot seat".
With respect to AN P4s, I know them quite well in an AN/E based system. I liked them a lot but they had a really weird characteristic of tending to make everything sound slowed up - almost "slow motion" sound. The same person is now using a 211 based Tomei and that is a magical amp in many ways - one step down from an Ongaku. That really brings a pair of AN/Es to life, brining pace, tempo and great dynamics into play.
He's been through a lot of the AN power amps, including the 300B based Kegon balanced (£70K) and AN 8 preamp. Compared to that combo, the Tomei winds hands down my a huge margin driving Es.
The system is coloured, though, in a very substantial but very euphonic way, displaying great tone on a lot of material. It has the ability to make studio recordings sound quite PA system live, which of course is nuts, but I enjoy it a lot whenever I hear it. Bass is super generous in a way that makes you think it is too heavy and too warm. Which I am sure it is, but you can easily live with and enjoy it if your not too worried about accuracy. The owner describes it as organic, a term he is very fond of.
WRT P4s on Duettas - they wouldn't stand a chance of driving them. None. Even near field at low volume they'd be useless.
We found the same thing using my Austria Analog 211s on AN/Es. 211 based amps really drive them superbly, it would seem. We did that before the Tomei arrived, and before the Kegon balanced. The Tomei circuit and valves displayed very much the same characteristics as the Austria Analog amps did, despite being much less powerful. And despite one being SET and one PP.
The planar drivers in these speakers are quite similar, yes. They are dipole, around 3-5 ohms in impedance, have low to mid 80s sensitivity and have a comparatively resistive load compared to most other driver technologies (mainly the issue is with crossover elements...the drivers are nearly resistive).
The other thing they have in common is the need for somewhat higher volume levels to "wake up". Apogees were among the best in this regard. Infinity was not so good (I had IRS Betas and they liked to be played loud) nor are Magenpans.
In this regard, electrostats are far better at playing at low levels and therefore also retrieve more low level information. STAX and Audiostatics were the best I have owned in terms of low level listening enjoyment short of my Odeon horns.
Genesis is using a modified BG driver. It has about 87db senstitivty and a nearly flat 4 ohm load. It covers from about 150 Hz to 12khz or more (it can go easily to 18Khz). So, it has the main effect on the speakers sound. I made DIY speakers with this driver so I know how they behave and sound very well (quite good actually). They also "woke up" with relative ease and worked great driven by KR (I had a second KR on the bass modules).
The Apogee from Australia is interesting because it uses Nd magnets and has a significantly higher Sensitivity (still a somewhat low 2.5 ohms though). THat might wake up at a lot lower levels.
Yes, the 211 and other big triodes (845, 805 etc.) do a better job than smaller ones like the 300B. I don't know why the P4s worked so well on the Maggie 1.6 but they did.
I used KR VA350 for a long time and it has a 211 sized triode (the T100 from KR). Now I have the Ayon Crossfire III and it has a big 62B triode.
Another triode with umph is the Russian GM70 and the smaller 6C33C.
Aries Cerat with the 813 tube has serious balls.
Yeah, we already knew you have strong opinions. Nothing new under the sun.
SET, SET, SET, and SET. Did I forget to mention: SET?
Al, may I ask why you are still talking to him? Most of us obviously know nothing, and he knows everything - he completes us.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Consistency in loudspeakers is extremely tough! And it is in areas we don't know yet how to measure. A 10% tolerance in the crossover capacitors or inductors (the best tolerance money can buy in some values) would result in less than 0.1dB in frequency response and less than a degree in phase response, but easily audible when installed in a pair. Drivers can vary by 3dB or more even with well-manufactured, well-specified ones. Ribbon elements seem to be particularly susceptible to the vagaries of crossover tolerance.
Probably explains some of the major differences in the restores as restorers are changing both the crossover components and in some cases the crossover points
That's what I thought about the Austin Acoustics system at RMAF, but you probably saw that thread... many did not share that opinion!
However, I do think Peter B had a point when he had that meltdown. Systems get judged all the time by people who shouldn't even be expressing their opinion, let alone forming a strong opinion to express in the first place. Perfect example is Amir in the Austin thread. What he did was horrible, then claiming it was ok because he's not a reviewer. But when you own a forum, post many photos and words in the forum you own, it's a review no matter what you want to call it and bashing a system that you haven't thoroughly tested isn't fair, isn't ethical and can have very negative consequences for smaller businesses. DDK chimed in and bashed it without hearing it AT ALL, based solely on his own biases!!! The internet has given these idiots a voice, for better or worse. It seems to be human nature to make decisions and form strong opinions based on whatever evidence happens to be on hand, whether it makes sense or not. Happens in all parts of life, especially politics...
I think that you can't trust a great majority of people's opinions on HiFi gear simply because they form opinions much too easily, and will give you their opinion based on hearing a 30 sec clip of a track they have never heard before. Or poke their head into a room for a minute, decide it's bad, then leave and tell everyone how bad it was. To be fair nobody is unbiased, but some do recognize they have biases and are more careful about forming strong opinions as a result. And to be fair, "different strokes for different folks" is also true, to a degree. I totally agree with your OP as well. A quick story to make the point... I had someone over with a lot of experience in HiFi to listen to my system, my SET amp + my horn hybrid speakers. Then we went to tour Boulder Amplifier where we heard at least a $500k system in a brand new dedicated room with no expenses spared. On the way back from the tour the person said they enjoyed listening to my system a lot more. While the system at Boulder was perfect in some ways, the way the music is presented isn't as engaging and fun to listen to vs horns and SETs that cost a fraction in a rather normal, only lightly treated room. There's something there that modern HiFi just doesn't do... an immediacy to the sound, the dynamics to make it sound real. A 3-D soundstage that isn't defined by the listening room boundaries. Strong emotional reactions to the music... I think modern HiFi misses these things for several reasons, one is the complexity of the signal path, which includes amplifier and crossover, another is simply dispersion pattern, and also efficiency of the transducers, modern HiFi is too inefficient transforming electricity to SPL.
(I have not read the last few pages yet, just wanted to comment on what I've read so far)
Dave, you are confusing issues.
1. You are carrying out a previous quarrel with other people from another thread
2. You are referring to SETs+horns, which is not contended. The issue here is Brad recommends SET + anything (horn, apogee, other speaker) > any SS + any speaker
So, the discussion over the last few pages is point 2.
1. You are carrying out a previous quarrel with other people from another thread
2. You are referring to SETs+horns, which is not contended. The issue here is Brad recommends SET + anything (horn, apogee, other speaker) > any SS + any speaker
So, the discussion over the last few pages is point 2.
In my expirience a 10% deviation in X over components will result in much more then 0,1 db difference , secondly anyone who can consistenly point out a ls that is playing 0,1 db harder or softer would i call Batman i d like to see it done .
Takes me to the wilson claim about absolute time alignment , first off all magico would be doing things very wrong as well as many other manufacturers , besides that you then need to listen in a harnass / be glued to the spot as a couple of cm will make already a 0.1 db difference
Ps yes bonzo if you change X over component values you change also the X over points
Takes me to the wilson claim about absolute time alignment , first off all magico would be doing things very wrong as well as many other manufacturers , besides that you then need to listen in a harnass / be glued to the spot as a couple of cm will make already a 0.1 db difference
Ps yes bonzo if you change X over component values you change also the X over points
This is my experience on the bass side,you need mass and power to create a somewhat realistic rendering of music. The bottom end can muck up the midrange and high frequency to a degree that I did not realise. Also I think presence has a lot to do with ambient retrieval and the quality of the midrange reproduction. Tubes do a stellar job on midrange,but don't necessarily have the power for the bottom end. I listen to a lot of opera and that requires a realistic rendition at all levels of performance. I have both class A tube amps that excel in presence,but fall short in the power needed for real bass performance. My SS 25 amp breakered mono blocks are fabulous on bass articulation and slam,but lack some of the presence of the tube amp. Right now I use SS,someday that might change,but not now.
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