Live music, Tone and Presence: What most systems get wrong

[andromedaaudio]

I ve said many times before , i think for electronic music SS amps present the more believable sound and acoustic (unamplified ) music classical, tubes are the most natural

 

[bonzo75]

What Roger is saying is especially true with Apogees. Not a Magico fan but on the S7, I preferred the vocals with the Vitus over the Kagura, reason being that the baritone chest and just the steady flow was better. When the Plinius, certainly not the best of SS, runs bridged class A into duets, the vocals are better than with SETs

 

[morricab]

Yeah, we already knew you have strong opinions. Nothing new under the sun.

SET, SET, SET, and SET. Did I forget to mention: SET?

Well, you forgot OTL, Class A pp triode, and the occasional hybrid.

 

[morricab]

Strong and in some cases wrong

And you are a judge of right and wrong?? You are the ultimate relativist. Pot, kettle, black.

I have at least some scientific basis to explain my observations. You have lots of observations with no hypothesis whatsoever.

 

[bonzo75]

And you are a judge of right and wrong?? You are the ultimate relativist. Pot, kettle, black.

I have at least some scientific basis to explain my observations. You have lots of observations with no hypothesis whatsoever.

So an hypothesis is required? H0: only SET driven systems sound good. Null hypothesis proven false

 

[Al M.]

And you are a judge of right and wrong?? You are the ultimate relativist. Pot, kettle, black.

I have at least some scientific basis to explain my observations. You have lots of observations with no hypothesis whatsoever.

Science lives from actual data. Hypotheses are only a start. A hypothesis alone is not a 'scientific basis'.

 

[Al M.]

Systems that are closer to the reality can evoke emotional response and do so from time to time (I won't say regularly because even live music doesn't do that). I like how people on this forum and others will call a system "editorializing" when it is "too" tonally rich. What I heard recently says just the opposite! Most systems are far too harmonically lean (Threadbare was the term used in the past) compared to the real thing. ) It's kind of like that old saying, "I can't define pornography but I know it when I see it!" . The same goes for tonality and presence. I can state, unequivocally, that I have never heard an all SS system that could deliver harmonic richness along with clarity and presence like I heard with that small cello duo. I am sure that there are good enough recordings (I have some) that capture harmonics like this and presence like this and it is therefore POTENTIALLY reproduceable at home. I have heard only a very few all tube systems that could get in the same post code...very few. Why??

I have a good idea as to why the electronics cannot deliver and it relates to distortion and psychoacoustics...it is of course like all things human related a statistical approach because correlating measurements with perception always ends up that way. However, it can be demonstrated that most humans would prefer to not have high order harmonic distortion in their music and if it is present it has to be weighted with the correct pattern of low order harmonics. This is from evolution it is how most humans ear/brains work. People can acquire a contrary taste for something through exposure but it doesn't change the bascis for most people. Therefore, there is a biologically correct distortion pattern that will lead to less audible consequences to the fact that we do not have perfectly linear amplification that makes no disotortion. Note, I didn't say Euphonic distortions I said less audible.

What do I think that this means? Based on my reading and interpretation of the studies available, there is a more correct way to design amplifiers that conforms better with the way humans hear distortion and judge it in terms of sound quality. There is a more right answer, in other words. Is it absolute? No, because as I said people will be contrary. I also think that those with good hearing memory for what they heard live, and I think this varies wildly among audiophiles, are also good a translating that experience into hifi decisions. There is an absolute sound and while no recording/playback system (note: I include the recording as part of the system) gets it right, there is closer and there is further away and this can be determined from careful listening and observation of differernces...i don't think this is purely subjectivist because a careful observer can make quite objective observations.

Now, that said, no single amplification devices is either perfectly linear OR perfectly following a distortion pattern (that also includes SPL) that will make it sound truly invisible...this is where subjective taste becomes important. However, most amplification devices are far enough away that it is rather easy to discredit their approach to reproduction. They are inherently wrong by design. They produce distortion patterns that are not consonant with how our ear/brain evloved and therefore standout like a sore thumb. Once you have heard what is wrong you cannot unhear it. I hear it in every SS and tube Class AB push/pull amp. It is a lack of coherence and an overlay of something...unnatural. It takes longer to hear with Class A SS with no feedback or Class A triode with no feedback...but you eventually hear it there as well. It hinders presence, affects tonality and impacts clarity. A good way to hear the effects of negative feedback is to get hold of an amp that has variable feedback, preferrably one that has "zero" as an option. THat is a real eyeopener. Adding feedback invariably, reduces palpability and flattens soundstage, lessens contrast in tonal colors (greys things out) and lessens dynamic contrasts. Leading edges might get a bit sharper but overally clarity is not improved. The only added benefit in some cases is a tighter, punchier bass...that often sounds less natural because it sounds truncated. Once you do some of these tests it becomes rather clear.

I like the sound of OTLs...I used to own a big pair of monos from Silvaweld. They had shocking transparency and dynamics but tone was too lean to be convincing. They also overheated the room and were a bitch to keep biased, so they were only optimal about half of the time. One of my dream amps might be an OTL SET without feedback (Aries Cerat makes one but it is HUGE and makes a massive amount of heat) but as far as I know only one choice that meets all criteria exists.

Speakers are another kettle of fish and how the amp interacts with them is another key to the puzzle. The interactions with complex impedance will lead to additional, and unpleasant, distortions, especially with amplifiers that have a high negative feedback. Most amps will work better with a speaker with a relatively resistive load and it is one probable cause for highly variable observations of some amps because the speaker interaction is affecting the sound so much. Speakers of course will flavor the sound, even if their FR is perfect because of driver and cabinet resonances and distortions from crossover networks, phase shifts etc. A perfect speaker is even more remote than a perfect set of electronics. More room here for personal preference I think.


Microphones are single ended...microphone amps are mostly not but I am sure that some out there are. It is not an issue to make small signal amplifiers from single ended circuits.

For a little experiment with actual data, see this post by Esldude:

I used to own some VTL trioded amps. Did a little experiment. I also had a Spectral DMA50. I loaded the VTL with a power resistor, and tapped the output with some divider resistors so the whole thing was exactly unity gain. Fed that into the Spectral. Feeding Quad ESL-63's.

My purpose was to figure out how much was lost in the VTL, which I considered the better amp. It had more space, 3d effects, smoother, more dynamic, more nuanced, more musical. The Spectral was a good sounding SS amp, but not equal to the VTL. The Spectral was subjectively about 2/3 as good as the VTL. I wondered if the VTL let 99% of the music through or 50%. So I thought taking it in and out of circuit I could get a handle on how much better things could get. Or if the VTL left little on the table.

I did not expect to fire that series arrangement up and hear the Spectral sound exactly like the VTL. Which is what happened. The spacious dynamic musical 3D sound issued forth from the Spectral amp. I later reversed position of the amps, and you could put the Spectral in or out and hear no difference. The wonderful sound of the VTL was a euphonic coloration. The Spectral could exactingly reproduce those effects if fed the right signal.

I switched a few times, listened over days. In time I did find the sound with the VTL feeding the Spectral balanced a little different than just the VTL. Bass was a bit less, and treble a touch less. I knew from measurements the output impedance of the tube amp interacted with the Quad's to raise the lower couple octaves a bit, and a resonance in the output transformer at 26 khz raised the top octave some too. Over time those were audible, but not obvious. Otherwise the Spectral could fully mimic the wonderful coloration of the VTL triode amp. So much for tube amp superiority.

 

[morricab]

Science lives from actual data. Hypotheses are only a start. A hypothesis alone is not a 'scientific basis'.

Go look at the data it's out there. It can still be a hypothesis...

 

[morricab]

So an hypothesis is required? H0: only SET driven systems sound good. Null hypothesis proven false

If only it were so simple with human psychology...you should know better but perhaps you are not a scientist?

As I said, it is statistical and therefore for preference there will be exceptions. Things like SPL also factor with psychoacoustics.

The correlation can be high but never 1.

 

[RogerD]

What Roger is saying is especially true with Apogees. Not a Magico fan but on the S7, I preferred the vocals with the Vitus over the Kagura, reason being that the baritone chest and just the steady flow was better. When the Plinius, certainly not the best of SS, runs bridged class A into duets, the vocals are better than with SETs

I don't know if I'm right,but you need to push air,especially if your room is 300sqft or more. Then you need a speaker with high sensitivity(in the 90's). Couple that with a amplifier with a reserve that most think is unecessary,because that is what produces the effortless presentation. The rest of it is not easy either,but the weight and power produced can be stunning after all I have never heard a live concert that wasn't.

 

[cjfrbw]

I have to admit that this thread is one of the more interesting and useful around here in a long time. I'm glad Brad decided to step in front of the firing squad to produce it. The thread certainly reflects a lot of my own explorations with amps, ribbons, etc. and listening sessions with horns and SET.

 

[Folsom]

I find it's perfectly normal for tubes to exaggerate qualities as often as they're portrayed well.

 

[bonzo75]

I have to admit that this thread is one of the more interesting and useful around here in a long time. I'm glad Brad decided to step in front of the firing squad to produce it. The thread certainly reflects a lot of my own explorations with amps, ribbons, etc. and listening sessions with horns and SET.

He did not step in front of the firing squad. The way things should ideally go is, because one regularly goes to concerts, while occasionally demoing hifi he steps in front of something and goes Ah...this is closest to my concert experience

Unfortunately the way this thread started is, because I went to a cello concert yesterday, I realized the thing that I own at home is right and all others are wrong. There was no discovery of a hifi component relating to a concert, it seems to be the discovery of a concert confirming the bias of a set up owned at home

 

[bonzo75]

I find it's perfectly normal for tubes to exaggerate qualities as often as they're portrayed well.

Things get worse when tubes are used to drive what they are not made to drive. The worst place to put tubes in is the power amp if you don't have that kind of speaker.

 

[Al M.]

I don't know if I'm right,but you need to push air,especially if your room is 300sqft or more. Then you need a speaker with high sensitivity(in the 90's). Couple that with a amplifier with a reserve that most think is unecessary,because that is what produces the effortless presentation. The rest of it is not easy either,but the weight and power produced can be stunning after all I have never heard a live concert that wasn't.

For deep bass that moves a lot of air you need SS amplification. In my monitor/subwoofer system the tube amps thankfully don't have to provide deep bass. The active SS driven sub takes care of that.

 

[microstrip]

Well, you forgot OTL, Class A pp triode, and the occasional hybrid.

The nice think of high power Class A pp triode is that most of the time they are operating class A.

 

[NorthStar]

I have to admit that this thread is one of the more interesting and useful around here in a long time. I'm glad Brad decided to step in front of the firing squad to produce it. The thread certainly reflects a lot of my own explorations with amps, ribbons, etc. and listening sessions with horns and SET.

I could be wrong Carl, but I believe that this post started a good positive trend for over a week now:
? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...as-a-Reference&p=422591&viewfull=1#post422591
______

Bonus (thanks to John...Bachtoven):

______

And then there was also this thread (three weeks ago, twenty days exactly): http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...industry-today&p=421088&viewfull=1#post421088

 

[Al M.]

He did not step in front of the firing squad. The way things should ideally go is, because one regularly goes to concerts, while occasionally demoing hifi he steps in front of something and goes Ah...this is closest to my concert.

Unfortunately the way this thread started is, because I went to a cello concert yesterday, I realized the thing that I own at home is right and all others are wrong. There was no discovery of a hifi component relating to a concert, it seems to be the discovery of a concert confirming the bias of a set up owned at home

That sounds about right.

 

[cjfrbw]

I could be wrong Carl, but I believe that this post started a good positive trend for over a week now:
? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...as-a-Reference&p=422591&viewfull=1#post422591
______

Bonus (thanks to John...Bachtoven):

______

And then there was also this thread (three weeks ago, twenty days exactly): http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...industry-today&p=421088&viewfull=1#post421088

I only drop in occasionally. When I start reading the threads that sound like old ladies clucking over their OC disorder cable obsessions and it's ilk, I tend to leave.

 

[NorthStar]

I have to admit I only drop in occasionally. When I start reading the threads that sound like old ladies clucking over their OC disorder cable obsessions and it's ilk, I tend to leave.

Same here same here. But that happens very rarely, only when listening to live acoustic music...in the "nude". ...A live piano, cello, viola, classical guitar, ...