"Live" vs Recorded - Thursday June 14th
- Thread starter garylkoh
- Start date
Maximum dBs:
125 DRUM SET-ONLY AT THE MOMENT OF STRIKING, CONTINOUS LEVEL 115
126-130 TYPICAL PROFESSIONAL D.J. SYSTEM -REF.1.1984
127 HUMAN TINNITUS (RINGING IN THE EARS) BEGINS -REF.1.1984 127.48 = 1 pound per square foot
128 (P)HUMAN, LOUDEST SCREAM MEASURED AT A DISTANCE OF 8 FEET 2 INCHES
Oh dear, a person's voice can outdo a drumkit, who would have thunk it! Maybe that's what they mean by headroom, the space in a persons skull to fit in the pair of 15" drivers to do this, with a pair of 2,000 watts amplifiers strapped onto their backs ...
Jack posted this quite some time ago, a fascinating read: http://www.makeitlouder.com/Decibel%20Level%20Chart.txt ...
Frank
125 DRUM SET-ONLY AT THE MOMENT OF STRIKING, CONTINOUS LEVEL 115
126-130 TYPICAL PROFESSIONAL D.J. SYSTEM -REF.1.1984
127 HUMAN TINNITUS (RINGING IN THE EARS) BEGINS -REF.1.1984 127.48 = 1 pound per square foot
128 (P)HUMAN, LOUDEST SCREAM MEASURED AT A DISTANCE OF 8 FEET 2 INCHES
Oh dear, a person's voice can outdo a drumkit, who would have thunk it! Maybe that's what they mean by headroom, the space in a persons skull to fit in the pair of 15" drivers to do this, with a pair of 2,000 watts amplifiers strapped onto their backs ...
Jack posted this quite some time ago, a fascinating read: http://www.makeitlouder.com/Decibel%20Level%20Chart.txt ...
Frank
Yeah, there's something about a trap kit that's really hard to reproduce, though. I suspect it's not the overall volume level so much as it is the speed at which the crack of a rimshot or sudden splash of a cymbal fills the room. And with the rimshot, it's probably also the speed at which it goes away. You can make it sound pretty good with hifi, but there's no mistaking it for the sound of the instruments in the room.
Tim
If you have never stood within a few feet of a drummer playing, you have no idea what a drum kit really sounds like. The first big crack of the drumstick and I promise you that you will have an involuntary reflexive action. You will either jump, cringe, or look startled and possibly you may have all three reactions.
And Tim is right, once you have heard the sound of drums and cymbals being played live and up close and personal, you will realize how far we have yet to go. Cymbals literally cut the through the air and you can hear it. The shimmer and the decay are something to behold.
And Tim is right, once you have heard the sound of drums and cymbals being played live and up close and personal, you will realize how far we have yet to go. Cymbals literally cut the through the air and you can hear it. The shimmer and the decay are something to behold.
I have, courtesy of a grandson a year or so ago. It's all about dynamics, the "jump" factor -- an audio system should be able to do it in mimicing one being some distance away from the kit; I suspect that Basspig's could do a pretty impressive simulcrum. Most setups run about 20dB short in terms of being able do the peak level, this is where a decent active pro monitor speaker should become a winner ...
Frank
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
It's not just spls, it's speed, transient response, even tonality. The difference between tapping a ride cymbal on it's bell, or just an inch further out on the circle, the completely unique sound of a high hat being struck, then rapidly closed. It almost sounds like reversed tape,like the sound is somehow being sucked out of the room. Really good systems do a reasonable facsimile of these things, but all you have to do is hear them close, once, to know we're not all that close. Then, of course, you have to relax and enjoy, except it for what it is, if you can.
Tim
Tim
I reckon a pair of these, suitably worked over and stabilised, will be mighty convincing:
http://dynaudioprofessional.com/bm-series/monitors/bm15a/
Frank
http://dynaudioprofessional.com/bm-series/monitors/bm15a/
Frank
Just got back from listening to the trumpeter Terell Stafford play with my son's high school jazz band. I sat no more than 3' from Mr. Stafford and I ain't never heard a stereo sound like THAT! ;-) BTW, I jumped several times from the drum kit.
Gary,
I plan on bribing (er, I mean parenting, yeah that's it, parenting) my son into bring his clarinet and baritone sax along for the demo....
Gary,
I plan on bribing (er, I mean parenting, yeah that's it, parenting) my son into bring his clarinet and baritone sax along for the demo....
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
carolkoh
[Industry Expert] Member Sponsor
You reckon wrong, IMO. I spent the day in the studio yesterday recording demos for the band, I had the experience of playing, in a treated room, a few feet from a drum kit, then walking into the next room and hearing it played back on a pair of Mackies that are every bit the equal of those Dynas (a little better on top, sctually). They're very good monitors, but not convincing enough. The divide, of course, is belief; I,believe your "working over" only destabilizes systems, and that's why it is so transient.
Tim
I'm looking at the Dynaudio from the point of view of max SPL, I agree there is not much in it, but just going by raw spec's and reputation, they would be a good starting point. Perhaps the latest Mackies have a bit more refinement in aspects of cabinet construction, opinions in the pro world seem strongly divided.
Stabilisation, as you pointed out in the other thread, would involve locking the speaker down to a structure of great mass: to run successfully at high peak SPLs the speaker would need to feel like a bank safe in terms of its stability on its base. Inside, I would beef up the bracing so that vibration was transferred more effectively to the base of the unit. A lot of the electronic circuitry and switching additional to the bare minimum to enable the unit to function would be eliminated, including the fancy protection bits. The most important tweak of all would be to give the power supply aspects a comprehensive working over, making them, to pluck a figure out the air, of the order of at least 10 times more precise and stable.
Then we might get somewhere near that "convincing" capability ...
Frank
Audiophiles will believe what they want to believe, and fas42 IMHO believes in his system far more than any other I have ever encountered.
There is no loudspeaker on earth that will convince me that I am standing next to a drum kit. None. Nor a saxaphone, and definitely not a trumpet.
A pair of these, may convince me that I am at a live rock concert, but you have to remember that rock concert is being reproduced over loudspeakers. That drum kit is already mic'ed and amplified and reproduced.
My customers are often surprised when I tell them that the G1's may be only 70% of "live" - especially after they have heard them - until I remind them that most of the "live" music they have heard were probably amplified over $2000 professional loudspeakers and using microphones that max out at 18kHz.
It's a pity that we won't be able to have out "Live" vs recorded event with a pair of these. And as I said earlier, the intention of this session is to educate, not to drive to dispair.
There is no loudspeaker on earth that will convince me that I am standing next to a drum kit. None. Nor a saxaphone, and definitely not a trumpet.
A pair of these, may convince me that I am at a live rock concert, but you have to remember that rock concert is being reproduced over loudspeakers. That drum kit is already mic'ed and amplified and reproduced.
My customers are often surprised when I tell them that the G1's may be only 70% of "live" - especially after they have heard them - until I remind them that most of the "live" music they have heard were probably amplified over $2000 professional loudspeakers and using microphones that max out at 18kHz.
It's a pity that we won't be able to have out "Live" vs recorded event with a pair of these. And as I said earlier, the intention of this session is to educate, not to drive to dispair.
I believe in what systems, in general, can achieve. My system is limited at the moment by maximum SPLs, and intrinsic quality of many of the parts, meaning extended warm-up and conditioning procedures and time. I would need another 20dB acoustic performance to do, "next to a drumkit", but it still allows me to do the impact of the drumkit 8 metres away. In essence what I replicate is the aliveness of the sound, without the identifying tags of "hifiness" that many systems have; it's certainly capable of delivering the punch, the visceral impact that makes you involuntarily react, that Mark talks of; also the overpowering ringing that goes through your head when a big brass instrument note is produced, it may be uncomfortable to some, but it's equivalent to the "real thing". So, my system never sounds "nice", it will drill you between the eyeballs, in a nice way, if that is what's on the recording ...
Frank
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
I agree Gary. Frank I am very envious of your system that you can stand 8 meters away from your speakers and it still sounds like a drum kit. I wish mine would be as accurate
Said with a grin, of course ... but the analogy is that when standing near the speakers that it is equivalent to hearing the drums at a volume as if they were 8 metres away. I'm well aware that the tone will not be as precisely correct as on good quality speakers, but the subjective impression is that the dynamic qualities are correct. Maybe an analogy is of listening to a good beginner's kit, as the real thing, vs. listening to the precise quality of the particular recorded kit ...
Frank
BTW, Gary, not fair that you "fight" with the extra cuteness factor in the picture!!
Frank
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