London Decca Jubilee revisited - combination with SME 3012R ?

[Audiophile Bill]

There are many reports about incorrect set up of the DECCAs leading to all sorts of problems.
BUT, there is hope that sometimes small tuning steps can make a huge difference ....nothing new with Analogue...?!
One tuning feature of the 3012R , not found in many tonearms, is the lateral balance adjustment – could be worth a gamble ?


Regards

Urs

PS: Bill, our posts just crossed....

Ha Urs,

Imho, it is very much worthwhile to pursue the extra care (even pain) to get a Decca on song. The first time I heard it fully dialled in, it was one of those audiophile moments I will never forget.

 

[UEM]

Bill,

Thanks for your encouragement !

Urs

 

[Stacore]

I second Bill. Before getting Jubilee on trial, I've loaded my head with all kinds of fears of "dreadfull Decca", loose bearings of 3012R and other bs. None of that has happened in my case. The combo started singing from the very first touch.

 

[UEM]

Stacore,
Thanks as well !

As I already trusted Bill – and others- I have ordered a Jubilee - should arrive in 3 weeks.

Needless to say: I'll report back dutifully...!!


Urs

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I am going to be controversial now and say every analogphile should have a Decca in their armoury

 

[gian60]

I have a Jubilee new since 2 years and never tried
Next days I will put on Torqueo

 

[jespera]

Fwiw: the last few weeks ive spent with a decca maroon.

Pros: Its exceptional transparent and lively. It picks up detail like nothing else ive tried. You can literally count the number of nose hair in the orchestra. Spookily there’ness on the right recordings.

Cons: it doesn’t have much love or boogaloo in tone. None of that 103 sweetness, spu sure-foot’ed-ness, or shure mm drive. Balance is a bit light. Various technical idiosyncracies.

Characterwise its more in the direction of an electrostatic than a vintage tannoy.

Better for acoustics than rock’n’roll.

Arm: groovemaster with schick headshell.

Its a keeper.

Jesper

Ps! Any practical tips on finding its g-spot spot are welcome.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Fwiw: the last few weeks ive spent with a decca maroon.

Pros: Its exceptional transparent and lively. It picks up detail like nothing else ive tried. You can literally count the number of nose hair in the orchestra. Spookily there’ness on the right recordings.

Cons: it doesn’t have much love or boogaloo in tone. None of that 103 sweetness, spu sure-foot’ed-ness, or shure mm drive. Balance is a bit light. Various technical idiosyncracies.

Characterwise its more in the direction of an electrostatic than a vintage tannoy.

Better for acoustics than rock’n’roll.

Arm: groovemaster with schick headshell.

Its a keeper.

Jesper

Ps! Any practical tips on finding its g-spot spot are welcome.

Jesper I don’t think you have it dialled in yet. When you have the tone is very generous and full. When not dialled in, it can be dry and brittle. Suggest to play extensively with VTA and check Azimuth.

 

[BruceD]

Jesper I don’t think you have it dialled in yet. When you have the tone is very generous and full. When not dialled in, it can be dry and brittle. Suggest to play extensively with VTA and check Azimuth.

Hmm Bill-VTA/ Azimuth measuring--is that possible without a cantilever?

BruceD(never too old to learn)

 

[jespera]

Jesper I don’t think you have it dialled in yet. When you have the tone is very generous and full. When not dialled in, it can be dry and brittle. Suggest to play extensively with VTA and check Azimuth.

You’re possibly probably right. I’ll try. But these exercises are not made easier by the lack of cantilever and straight lines on the case.

Jesper

 

[Audiophile Bill]

You’re possibly probably right. I’ll try. But these exercises are not made easier by the lack of cantilever and straight lines on the case.

Jesper

Hi Jesper,

I know. Just need to be really patient and do it by ear. Ideally if someone can adjust VTA whilst you are in the listening seat. Use a string quartet or similar to get the strings full not scratchy or dry. Also use a small scale jazz ensemble with lots of saxophone and trumpet if possible. The sax will go from flat to kind of breathing.

My advice is similarly shared by majority of users not left field.

Best wishes.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hmm Bill-VTA/ Azimuth measuring--is that possible without a cantilever?

BruceD(never too old to learn)

Possible in that you believe that neither of these parameters has any impact on the sound of a Decca?

Or “possible” that physics precludes you from adjusting the VTA / SRA and Azimuth?

 

[BruceD]

Possible in that you believe that neither of these parameters has any impact on the sound of a Decca?

Or “possible” that physics precludes you from adjusting the VTA / SRA and Azimuth?

Yes Bill, My point was just getting the noggin around the intricacies of the Decca's VTA/SRA/Azimuth.

I must admit to be tad rusty on the Carts --not having owned any of them for hmm--well over 40 years--ha!--in fact my very first

LP Cart ever!--was the Decca Deram(Ceramic ) and I was in Mono heaven!

My query was basically with no cantilever -only the Gut string(?) hold down how the Alignment is carried out regarding paralleling the

needle in the Protractors lines--I've owned the Wally/ Feickerts/etc and familiar with other versions out there

also SRA angle can this be measured/ -as per the Michael Fremer 92deg /etc/etc using the tip to Cantilever angle method

-done that with regular Carts.

Azimuth purely by ear -fine--? as it seems unless say one has a Kuzma 4point or similar with the vernier adjust and the software

the ear is the master on this aspect I'd gather-- that's fine by me.

Like I said 40 years ago we did not have then the painful plethora of Cartridge alignment setups and the dear old Decca's just kept sailing

along-- and I was simply wondering IF any of the above can be used with the current crop-- if not just enjoy and we'll move on

As for the Decca's Long may they Reign!

BruceD

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Yes Bill, My point was just getting the noggin around the intricacies of the Decca's VTA/SRA/Azimuth.

I must admit to be tad rusty on the Carts --not having owned any of them for hmm--well over 40 years--ha!--in fact my very first

LP Cart ever!--was the Decca Deram(Ceramic ) and I was in Mono heaven!

My query was basically with no cantilever -only the Gut string(?) hold down how the Alignment is carried out regarding paralleling the

needle in the Protractors lines--I've owned the Wally/ Feickerts/etc and familiar with other versions out there

also SRA angle can this be measured/ -as per the Michael Fremer 92deg /etc/etc using the tip to Cantilever angle method

-done that with regular Carts.

Azimuth purely by ear -fine--? as it seems unless say one has a Kuzma 4point or similar with the vernier adjust and the software

the ear is the master on this aspect I'd gather-- that's fine by me.

Like I said 40 years ago we did not have then the painful plethora of Cartridge alignment setups and the dear old Decca's just kept sailing

along-- and I was simply wondering IF any of the above can be used with the current crop-- if not just enjoy and we'll move on

As for the Decca's Long may they Reign!

BruceD

Hi Bruce,

Yes indeed it is really bloody hard to see what is going on under there because of such low clearance and the lack of any protruding cantilever.

In terms of VTA/SRA - realistically it must be mainly SRA that one is adjusting when changing the height of their tonearm base since the pivot axis to the back on the Decca’s internal cantilever will likely has extremely low compliance vs normal cantilever designs. Indeed I think the lack of compliance here is what many regard is one of the parameters that gives Decca such explosive dynamics - specifically that no vibration is lost in heat etc at that soft rubber joint. Below is an internal I pinched off the web:


Anyway I digress - so effectively it is largely the SRA that is being adjusted when one manipulates their VTA tower imho. Decca recommendation is to set it so you riding just slightly low at the tail, which seems almost inconceivable when you see how low and flat it is to the vinyl anyway.

In terms of whether you can get a usb microscope in there with Feickert software a la Fremer method - I am not sure if possible or not but I would imagine with the right microscope possibly. I have always used my ears to set it. It shouldn’t sound dry or thin - if anything it is super generous in the lower mids when dialled in.

For Azimuth - I do that with a tiny level as I don’t own a Fozgometer but the latter would be really interesting just to see how sensitive or not the cart is to this parameter.

I am afraid my setup is somewhat old fashioned and crude by modern standards and it does take much longer to get it really singing and you’ll lose a few hairs doing it but it is so worth it.

In my humble opinion, there is no cartridge I have heard that can do what a Decca does in certain parameters. Bringing the music alive is one of those.

 

[jespera]

Bill: u da man!

Its now low riding bad and the tone is transformed. Wow!

I had to add extra weights as spacers, use longer screws with extra bolts, and move the lift up.

This is the instrument i used.

Thx!

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Bill: u da man!

Its now low riding bad and the tone is transformed. Wow!

I had to add extra weights as spacers, use longer screws with extra bolts, and move the lift up.

This is the instrument i used.

Thx!View attachment 66176

So happy for you, Jesper. Webster’s sax should be filthy on the Decca. Literally breathing into the room on that Analogue Productions recording.

 

[jespera]

Yes it sounds very very good now. But I may still try to squeeze a little bit more out of it. Awesome.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Yes it sounds very very good now. But I may still try to squeeze a little bit more out of it. Awesome.

There is the blue tac trick too. Not sure if it helps the Jubilee or not.

 

[Stacore]

Hmm Bill-VTA/ Azimuth measuring--is that possible without a cantilever?

BruceD(never too old to learn)

Azimuth - crosstalk measurements or as some claim better yet HF sweep with a test record and equalizing HF perfromance

VTA/SRA - cartridge top parallel to LP (on London Reference at least) then by ear.

Cheers,

 

[jespera]

There is the blue tac trick too. Not sure if it helps the Jubilee or not.

Yes gotta try that too. Just ordinary blue tac between the plastic bracket and the headshell?

Jesper