"Long-Term Equipment Loans: A Win-Win for Everyone" by Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound

[tima]

It depends on your definition of "substantially different."

I think it is substantially different in meaning, because it tells the reader that Robert would be stating his personal, subjective preference -- as opposed to some objective fact.

I would concede that in this context "personal" and "subjective" may be redundant.

Okay - forget the 'substantially' modifer.

You were the one that said two sentence were different in meaning. I don't see how.

"Robert certainly could reveal which loudspeaker he personally, subjectively, prefers."

"Robert could reveal which loudspeaker he prefers."

The editing - yes it is editing - is to encourage a more straightforward readable statement by removing adverbial puffery. It is not convincing. Like I said, you would hate me as your editor.

 

[Lee]

That’s great Lee. Do you think people like reading such tepid review conclusions? I’m sure eyeballs have increased on WBF too. Does that mean that the content is better than it was before?

I was just politely refuting your comment about TAS losing readers. It just hasn't happened.

I feel like in many ways the TAS writers have gained more experience over time and have improved their writing skills. It may not be to your liking, as there is fewer horn/SET coverage, but it seems to be maintaining a good audience.

One thing we did was get on Zinio to gain more Asia Pacific readers and also make it easier for the Stereophile and Hifi News readers to add us on their iPads. The Asian market is huge for audio.

 

[Lee]

I believe you. I was not thinking of Positive Feedback or other on-line review publishers.

By "magazines" I meant only the print magazines Stereophile and The Absolute Sound.

Love you Ron but I object a bit to the term "print magazines". At least with TAS, the better term is media company. Much revenue comes from the digital channels.

 

[Al M.]

We live in a world now where no one is to be offended and everyone gets a trophy. Everything is just great. Lots of shiny expensive things are “top-of-the-line“, as you put it. The problem is no one believes it and it is not the way things really are. If we are to be intellectually honest, we admit that some things are better than other things.

Really, in which world, Peter? In the very successful biotech company that I work in no one gets a prize or award for mediocre performance, only the best do. Same in my godson's school and summer camp. And yes, the James Webb telescope is the best space telescope. Nobody with some knowledge of the matter disputes that objective fact. And no one disputes that the Large Hadron Collider is the most powerful particle collider out there. Everyone knows which is the objective best in those cases.

Yet audio is very subjective, and by the very fact that judgment is based on personal taste, perception, priorities and preferences there can be no "objective best".

But I see where this is going. As Ron astutely pointed out, you always want to establish your subjective preferences as "objective fact". You have done so, to the anger of many on WBF, by usurping the term "Natural Sound" for systems of your personal preference, clearly implying, for everyone easy to read between the lines, that any other system configuration cannot yield as much "natural sound" as your preferred ones.

Of course, if you believe that your superior minded subjective preferences and higher revelations received in Utah are the objective truth, then there must be an objective best on WBF. And that objective best is according to your taste and perceptions, hence your nomination of the Neumann DST cartridge as The Best, for example.

Why do you think that Bonzo (Ked) and Morricab (Brad) get so much pushback on WBF? They also have this superior minded attitude that their subjective opinions and preferences are the objective truth.Brad might even argue that "fact" with psychological listening studies exploring the effect of amplifier distortion patterns. Well, some disagree on this point, too, including industry experts. Also, both may claim that they have the most experience, but even if that were so (debatable), their opinions are *still* subjective.

 

[PeterA]

I was just politely refuting your comment about TAS losing readers. It just hasn't happened.

I feel like in many ways the TAS writers have gained more experience over time and have improved their writing skills. It may not be to your liking, as there is fewer horn/SET coverage, but it seems to be maintaining a good audience.

One thing we did was get on Zinio to gain more Asia Pacific readers and also make it easier for the Stereophile and Hifi News readers to add us on their iPads. The Asian market is huge for audio.

Lee, I wrote that it does not seem that people like reading such reviews. That is reviews that conclude by suggesting that one add the component under review to an audition list. I did not claim the TAS was losing readership. You keep telling us that it is not.

I think we are talking about different things and talking past each other. S ubscription numbers are an interesting thing. I kept receiving the magazines for 18 months after I stopped reading them. Sending magazines out at very little cost once been produced to keep numbers high for advertising rates I think is a fairly common practice.

I stopped reading TAS long before I became interested in horns. It has nothing to do with lack of horn SET coverage. It’s also not about the quality of the writing. It is about the content and what is actually written. At least for me, that is why I lost interest.

 

[PeterA]

Really, in which world, Peter? In the very successful biotech company that I work in no one gets a prize or award for mediocre performance, only the best do. Same in my godson's school and summer camp. And yes, the James Webb telescope is the best space telescope. Nobody with some knowledge of the matter disputes that objective fact. And no one disputes that the Large Hadron Collider is the most powerful particle collider out there. Everyone knows which is the objective best in those cases.

Yet audio is very subjective, and by the very fact that judgment is based on personal taste, perception, priorities and preferences there can be no "objective best".

But I see where this is going. As Ron astutely pointed out, you always want to establish your subjective preferences as "objective fact". You have done so, to the anger of many on WBF, by usurping the term "Natural Sound" for systems of your personal preference, clearly implying, for everyone easy to read between the lines, that any other system configuration cannot yield as much "natural sound" as your preferred ones.

Of course, if you believe that your superior minded subjective preferences and higher revelations received in Utah are the objective truth, then there must be an objective best on WBF. And that objective best is according to your taste and perceptions, hence your nomination of the Neumann DST cartridge as The Best, for example.

Why do you think that Bonzo (Ked) and Morricab (Brad) get so much pushback on WBF? They also have this superior minded attitude that their subjective opinions and preferences are the objective truth.Brad might even argue that "fact" with psychological listening studies exploring the effect of amplifier distortion patterns. Well, some disagree on this point, too, including industry experts. Also, both may claim that they have the most experience, but even if that were so (debatable), their opinions are *still* subjective.

Yes, we live in a world where no one is to be offended. It seems you are offended by my opinions. And Brad and Kadar are being criticized because their opinions offend. Every now and then someone will be bold and refer to their system thread as something different from simply the typology of the gear or the name of the brands. I did that twice and in the era of the offended, the second time was highly criticized.

The topic here is putting six or seven “top-of-the-line“ speakers on the cover of TAS. I no longer read it, so I don’t know, but it seems like the editors are making sure the manufacturers are not offended. So we got comments like they’re all great and put them on the list and go listen. A trophy cover shot for participating.

We see what stuff survives overtime as being the best of an era. And we can compare those with what is currently the latest and greatest. And then we can judge for ourselves how much progress we have made.

The Oscars have awards, many many awards, every year which they call “Best“. Surely those are nothing more than opinions. And yet, people have strongly held beliefs about the few best actors and actresses. And a very few movies show up on everyone’s list of best movies of all time.

 

[bonzo75]

Why do you think that Bonzo (Ked) and Morricab (Brad) get so much pushback on WBF? They also have this superior minded attitude that their subjective opinions and preferences are the objective truth.Brad might even argue that "fact" with psychological listening studies exploring the effect of amplifier distortion patterns. Well, some disagree on this point, too, including industry experts. Also, both may claim that they have the most experience, but even if that were so (debatable), their opinions are *still* subjective.

Actually, it is the other thing that is more irritating. When people with no experience of a particular topic offer opinions on that, that are neither subjective nor objective. Like you do on analog, golden era LPs, and SET horns. I think we need a third type of opinion, participative. Just for the heck of participating in the chat

 

[Al M.]

Yes, we live in a world where no one is to be offended. It seems you are offended by my opinions.

I and others are not offended by your opinions, but by your superior minded attitude regarding your "Natural Sound".

And Brad and Kadar are being criticized because their opinions offend.

No, I and others are not offended by their opinions (I personally couldn't care less about them, except when they're interesting), but by their superior minded attitude.

Every now and then someone will be bold and refer to their system thread as something different from simply the typology of the gear or the name of the brands. I did that twice and in the era of the offended, the second time was highly criticized.

In your case it was not "bold", it was presumptuous. And the consequences of the thread title "Natural Sound" have been extensively discussed.

The topic here is putting six or seven “top-of-the-line“ speakers on the cover of TAS. I no longer read it, so I don’t know, but it seems like the editors are making sure the manufacturers are not offended. So we got comments like they’re all great and put them on the list and go listen. A trophy cover shot for participating.

We see what stuff survives overtime as being the best of an era. And we can compare those with what is currently the latest and greatest. And then we can judge for ourselves how much progress we have made.

The Oscars have awards, many many awards, every year which they call “Best“. Surely those are nothing more than opinions. And yet, people have strongly held beliefs about the few best actors and actresses. And a very few movies show up on everyone’s list of best movies of all time.

Yeah, right, there goes the nostalgia trip again.

"Good ole times", huh?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Al i offered a solution for this a long time ago .
A Horn / Set / Elite subforum.

Up on log in at WBF you need choose to log in as either an amateur or expert
The experts don t have to answer the same dumb questions anymore leading to the same discussions over and over .
The amateurs can then discuss topics on their own level and can built self esteem

If the " experts " detect any amateur with potential they can can get the elite log in code .

Please keep in mind the Elite forum entry is invitation only.

 

[Lee]

Yes, we live in a world where no one is to be offended. It seems you are offended by my opinions. And Brad and Kadar are being criticized because their opinions offend. Every now and then someone will be bold and refer to their system thread as something different from simply the typology of the gear or the name of the brands. I did that twice and in the era of the offended, the second time was highly criticized.

The topic here is putting six or seven “top-of-the-line“ speakers on the cover of TAS. I no longer read it, so I don’t know, but it seems like the editors are making sure the manufacturers are not offended. So we got comments like they’re all great and put them on the list and go listen. A trophy cover shot for participating.

We see what stuff survives overtime as being the best of an era. And we can compare those with what is currently the latest and greatest. And then we can judge for ourselves how much progress we have made.

The Oscars have awards, many many awards, every year which they call “Best“. Surely those are nothing more than opinions. And yet, people have strongly held beliefs about the few best actors and actresses. And a very few movies show up on everyone’s list of best movies of all time.

I don’t mind Brad and Kedar having a different opinion. But I do object to them repeatedly making personal attacks on folks they disagree with.

 

[bonzo75]

I don’t mind Brad and Kedar having a different opinion. But I do object to them repeatedly making personal attacks on folks they disagree with.

You mean like you do with "douchebag" and "your opinion is outdated" and calling those audiophiles who called out MofI fraud as clueless.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Love you Ron but I object a bit to the term "print magazines". At least with TAS, the better term is media company. Much revenue comes from the digital channels.

Fair enough! I used that term in that post not to suggest that TAS is not now a diversified media company. I totally think it is, and I have given you credit for leading TAS into the digital domain.

I used that term in that post only to distinguish TAS and Stereophile from on-line only (non-print) publishers.

 

[bonzo75]

Al i offered a solution for this a long time ago .
A Horn / Set / Elite subforum.

Up on log in at WBF you can either choose to log in as amateur and another one where the experts can log in.
The experts don t have to answer the same dumb questions anymore

Actually, there should be one for amateurs who want to be experts, i.e. those with inefficient speakers wanting to go SETs horns, as there are more of them these days. Or you can just have a test in the amateur sub forum for a promotion to the next one. Call the test Stairway to Heaven, for the chosen path.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Call the test Stairway to Heaven, for the chosen path

No thank you

 

[Lee]

You mean like you do with "douchebag" and "your opinion is outdated" and calling those audiophiles who called out MofI fraud as clueless.

I apologized for the douchebag comment. When are you and Brad going to apologize?

 

[Lee]

Fair enough! I used that term in that post not to suggest that TAS is not now a diversified media company. I totally think it is, and I have given you credit for leading TAS into the digital domain.

I used that term in that post only to distinguish TAS and Stereophile from on-line only (non-print) publishers.

Cool. I figured that was the case.

 

[bonzo75]

I apologized for the douchebag comment. When are you and Brad going to apologize?

what about the other direct insults?

 

[Joe Whip]

Sorry PeterA but when you express an opinion and someone expresses their opinion in response, it does not mean they are offended, far from it. When you express an opinion, you should be prepared to defend it. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from consequences,. Claiming that folks are offended is nonsensical.

 

[Elliot G.]

Here's a question for you: would you loan a reviewer a component for use as the compared-to product in a review?

I can't answer the question as asked.
I will say this I don't see much value beyond some publicity and some nice pictures.

If it was video maybe I would feel differently.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I can't answer the question as asked.

Why not? It's an interesting and fair question.

I also would ask other manufacturers and distributors this question.