Magico M9

[PeterA]

I thought only the term pistonic is referring to a dymanic driver cone speaker. Objectively, yes pistonic would be ideal. Subjectively, of course not.

Magico isn't the only brand implementing these drivers.

https://www.vandersteen.com//news/the-truth-about-pistonic-driver-cones

Thank you for posting that interesting video.

 

[microstrip]

I should be the M18.

You are forgetting about the law of diminishing returns ... M12 at best, 13 is a bad luck number is some cultures!

 

[Alrainbow]

So you understand the physics, i.e., you actually hearing more of what is on the recording, but you fail to hear the benefits of such a benefit?

Can you hear it with your eyes closed or before reading the white paper ..

I have yet to hear a pistonic driver speakers sounds better than Horns or panel speakers im familiar with none have Pistonic drivers..


Maybe you can name a few ..?

 

[cannata]

Can you hear it with your eyes closed or before reading the white paper ..

I have yet to hear a pistonic driver speakers sounds better than Horns or panel speakers im familiar with none have Pistonic drivers..


Maybe you can name a few ..?

Most high-end compression drivers, you know the ones that are used in high-end horns, are indeed pistonic.
That is why a Be diaphragm is considered an upgrade.

 

[dcathro]

Can you hear it with your eyes closed or before reading the white paper ..

I have yet to hear a pistonic driver speakers sounds better than Horns or panel speakers im familiar with none have Pistonic drivers..


Maybe you can name a few ..?

I thought that one of the benefits of horns was that the diaphragm having to move only a very small amount would behave in a pistonic fashion. Am I wrong

 

[Alrainbow]

@cannata Can you name the speaker systems with them , for reference ..

 

[Alrainbow]

I thought that one of the benefits of horns was that the diaphragm having to move only a very small amount would behave in a pistonic fashion. Am I wrong

If soft diaphragm its not considered Pistonic

 

[Alrainbow]

Most high-end compression drivers, you know the ones that are used in high-end horns, are indeed pistonic.
That is why a Be diaphragm is considered an upgrade.

The Avante Garde trio XD doesn't use Be diaphragms , the others i have heard im not familiar if they do or not , can you name the speakers with them for reference , I'm not aware of any , domestic systems that is ..

 

[cannata]

@cannata Can you name the speaker systems with them , for reference ..

Any horn with a compression driver, TAD, JBL, ALE etc. They are all pistonic, some more than others (Be). But, like dcathro pointed out, you can be pistonic even if the diaphragm is soft as long as it does not bend in its passband, which can be the case with a horn loading.

 

[Alpinist]

Can you hear it with your eyes closed or before reading the white paper ..

I have yet to hear a pistonic driver speakers sounds better than Horns or panel speakers im familiar with none have Pistonic drivers..


Maybe you can name a few ..?

Hi Al,

I went back and forth for several hours between the two largest listening rooms at Overture Audio playing the same music. One room had Esoteric/Magico M6’s (pistonic) and the other room had Pass Labs/Magnepan 30.7’s (planar). In my opinion, the M6’s did everything the 30.7’s could do and a whole lot more in terms soundstage, imaging, transparency, speed, dynamics, bass response and overall musicality. It was really no contest. The M6’s beat the 30.7’s soundly at their own game. And I’ve always been a big planar speaker fan, having owned Apogee Duetta Signatures and Magnepan 3.7’s. Best not to pigeonhole any particular design. It’s all in the implementation.

Ken

 

[Alrainbow]

Hi Al,

I went back and forth for several hours between the two largest listening rooms at Overture Audio playing the same music. One room had Esoteric/Magico M6’s (pistonic) and the other room had Pass Labs/Magnepan 30.7’s (planar). In my opinion, the M6’s did everything the 30.7’s could do and a whole lot more in terms soundstage, imaging, transparency, speed, dynamics, bass response and overall musicality. It was really no contest. The M6’s beat the 30.7’s soundly at their own game. And I’ve always been a big planar speaker fan, having own Apogee Duetta Signatures and Magnepan 3.7’s. Best not to pigeonhole any particular design. It’s all in the implementation.

Ken

Not pigeon holing Ken , only mentioned i havent heard one were i thought surpassed non Pistonic loudspeakers, so not possible for me to comment on something Im not aware of ..


BTW 30.7 is a bad example IMO , not a worthy Maggie like 3.7 or 20.1 at all and set up is key , i recently heard M6 and it was way Meh sounding to me , but im not one to use one experience and do a tell all, i have heard the smaller M3 i think it was and thought them good sounding on PASS stuff.

 

[Alrainbow]

Any horn with a compression driver, TAD, JBL, ALE etc. They are all pistonic, some more than others (Be). But, like dcathro pointed out, you can be pistonic even if the diaphragm is soft as long as it does not bend in its passband, which can be the case with a horn loading.

Not aware of soft mesh being Pistonic , wasn't aware of that ..

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Any horn with a compression driver, TAD, JBL, ALE etc. They are all pistonic, some more than others (Be). But, like dcathro pointed out, you can be pistonic even if the diaphragm is soft as long as it does not bend in its passband, which can be the case with a horn loading.

Indeed. I would expect also the titanium diaphragms also to be pistonic (Goto Unit various mid range models).

Radian is another common brand that horn diy’ers (and manufacturers like Horns.pl) use with Be diaphragms.

 

[Alrainbow]

So only Avante Garde using mesh..?

I find soft-dome and paper cones most natural sounding for mid and highs in piston speakers , Foil and mylar for planers , ESL .. very natural Tone better Timbre than all the titanium , Be , ceramic cone piston driver loudspeakers i have heard ..

I would like to hear more of to be conclusive , so far not swayed.

In otherwords i wouldn't buy because of or not , if its good or better then so Be it ..

 

[Gregadd]

In theory a cone made of paper can flex when pushed forward. Thus materials are chosen to reduce flex. Fix one problem and you create another. Weight and resonance for example can vary. Exotic materials are expensive.

 

[Duke LeJeune]

I thought that one of the benefits of horns was that the diaphragm having to move only a very small amount would behave in a pistonic fashion.

While there are definitely benefits to the relatively small excursions required of compression driver diaphragms, inherent pistonic behavior is not one of them.

Few compression driver diaphragms that I am aware of are pistonic across their passbands. True Beryllium diaphragms usually are.

At the risk of over-simplifying, other compression driver diaphragm materials juggle stiffness vs damping. Some manufacturers are working with innovative materials (or combinations of materials), and some are working with unorthodox computer-optimized geometries, to improve diaphragm behavior at lower cost than Beryllium.

Down in the midrange and woofer region, there are tradeoffs between rigid cones and well-damped cones. Intuition might tell us that we're better off with a cone sufficiently rigid to behave pistonically across the driver's passband, but what happens above the passband can still be an issue. Stiff cones usually ring severely when they do go into breakup. Normally that ringing is suppressed by a steep crossover, but it can still be excited to an audible (and objectionable) level if the driver generates much in the way of harmonic distortion, as this distortion occurs AFTER the crossover so it is not suppressed by it. Thus in my opinion the requirements for the motor system itself may become more stringent if a rigid diaphragm is used.

That being said I don't know enough about the behavior of Alon Wolf's diaphragms to know whether they have successfully avoided the ringing issue which most rigid diaphragms have. My guess is that they have addressed it, as imo that would be an area where improvement can be made over other very rigid diaphragms.

Ringing is arguably not a significant issue with true Beryllium diaphragms, as it typically occurs above the range of human hearing. The Radian compression drivers with Beryllium diaphragms that I have worked with have sounded very smooth to my ears, subject to the "voicing" of the crossover. But this does not apply to pseudo-Beryllium diaphragms which may find their way into the dome tweeters of fairly inexpensive speakers (those diaphragms containing a very low percentage of Beryllium).

 

[bonzo75]

Well my favorite drivers for midrange and highs are beryllium like Radian and TAD, and doped paper Lowther variants like AER, Stamm, yamamura

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Well my favorite drivers for midrange and highs are beryllium like Radian and TAD, and doped paper Lowther variants like AER, Stamm, yamamura

Hi Ked,

The AER cone whilst doped (in some varnish) is pretty flexy. It isn’t rigid at all. Stamm is more so but also flexy. I haven’t got my hands on Yamamura Lowther yet. The Radian and TAD Be will be very rigid indeed. Therefore I am not sure that the concept of “pistonic” is necessarily what is defining your love for the mid range drivers here.

Maybe very light mass coupled to high motor force and extreme efficiency.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Ked,

The AER cone whilst doped (in some varnish) is pretty flexy. It isn’t rigid at all. Stamm is more so but also flexy. I haven’t got my hands on Yamamura Lowther yet. The Radian and TAD Be will be very rigid indeed. Therefore I am not sure that the concept of “pistonic” is necessarily what is defining your love for the mid range drivers here.

Maybe very light mass coupled to high motor force and extreme efficiency.

Possible. I never heard the term pistonic used in horn chat, though it may apply.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Possible. I never heard the term pistonic used in horn chat, though it may apply.

Agree it is a term not normally discussed elsewhere. But either way “pistonic” can’t be the pivotal reason you like those drivers because some are in your list and some aren’t.