Many big names missing from Axpona in Chicago. Worth attending the show?

[caesar]

Seems to me the best thing at Axpona will be the MBL room and Greg Beron. If Vivid will be showing with tubes, it will a REAL TREAT also. Other top brands are listed on the exhibitor list, but it is unclear if they will be displaying their very best, or what the local dealers happen to have in showrooms.

Of course, the good news about Magico, Wilson, etc., not presenting is that there will be less Magico Derangement Syndrome on the part of the media (or Wilson...). But if you have a clown like Robert Harley or Valin constantly bringing awareness to your brand in all of the articles and constant blog posts, why should you bother showing your gear to the rabble? Whereas Wilson and Magico can get away with it, it is big mistake for Estelons or Ridehos or a Dartzeel not to make an impression on people who can only read about the gear. It just might happen that an amateur with a demonic passion for gear that sounds like real music will be blown away and help evangelize their product.

I'm also bummed about Nola not showing.

So anyone excited about this show? I am not familiar with many of the brands on the list, but that doesn't mean a thing. Any specific gear worth hearing?

 

[cjfrbw]

Given the expense and hassle, I am surprised the brands make as many shows as they do. There is still an extensive list there. Maybe an incentive to spend more time with the "other" brands and less time clogging up the "big guns'" rooms.

 

[Mark Seaton]

I would argue it's encouraging that so many manufacturers are supporting the dealers who are showing, with guys in the rooms from Krell, Wisdom, TAD and many others. As mentioned, there are many shows. Axpona has been hopping around and this is the first year in Chicago, so those of us showing are rolling the dice and are very curious to see how the logistics and attendance work out. RMAF was a tiny show when it started and certainly did not start with the bigger names which are more common now. The reality is that all of these consumer-centric shows are still fairly young, with none having a history of 10 years. With any such effort I would expect a learning curve with significant maturing occurring in the 3-5 and 10 year range with operations and attendance/awareness.

While many in the warmer climates cringe at Chicago in March (6-12" of snow due tomorrow! ... mid 40s & sun Fri), those within driving distance or with cheap flights from the east coast all have snow and cold at home as well. Why not go check out an audio show when you are less inclined to be outdoors? Having slaved for and being friends with many dealers in the midwest, I would also point out that the surrounding market tends to find more purchasing interest in the higher value offerings, 1-2 clicks down from flagship/cost-be-damned products. Given al of the commentary around CES along the lines of "They want how much for that?", I'll be curious to see what attendees find most interesting. My understanding is that tickets have been rather strong. If they can manage to pull off 2 years of a worthwhile show, expect to see it get much more attention and participation.

Anyone wandering the rooms be sure to introduce yourself and say hello... I'll be the one trying not to restrain myself from the volume control a door or two over form MBL's eye candy.

 

[garylkoh]

Mark, with your speaker and subs, this will show them off wonderfully.

http://www.amazon.com/Touch-Yello-V...F8&qid=1362419158&sr=8-3&keywords=touch+yello


I used it at CES, and it was one of the most requested tracks from people coming in the door, and the most detested tracks from the rooms surrounding us.

I was hoping to be there supporting my dealer and distributor, but with the state of my back I might not be able to crawl off the plane after we land. So, unfortunately I'm going to have to sit (or lie) this one out.

 

[Frank750]

Seems to me the best thing at Axpona will be the MBL room and Greg Beron. If Vivid will be showing with tubes, it will a REAL TREAT also. Other top brands are listed on the exhibitor list, but it is unclear if they will be displaying their very best, or what the local dealers happen to have in showrooms.

So anyone excited about this show? I am not familiar with many of the brands on the list, but that doesn't mean a thing. Any specific gear worth hearing?

Chicago dealer Quintessence Audio will have the Focal Grande Utopia EM driven by Pass XS300 in one of their rooms.

 

[prerich]

The Axpona show is worth going to. If it's anything like the J'ville show - the people are gracious, and want you to bring your own music. I would go if I lived closer. So what, Magico and Wilson are not there....big deal - there are many other speakers out there....you just may discover one that you've never heard before!!! It's not always about the name you know - but about the name no one knows...yet! Over at part-time audiophile, the owner of that blog is stoked about Volti Audio's new speaker....I am too, but I'm not able to hear it .

 

[caesar]

Definitely worth attending!!!!

I am attracted to systems with big sound, emulation of real dynamics, and natural tone. Hooked up with some friends for some live Chicago Blues after the show to recalibrate my reference.

Big disappointment #1: Too many audiophiles listening to pathetic audiophile music. If you like ladies singing, that's great. But that's not what real music sounds like
Big disappointment #2: Famous audio reviewers judging systems by playing tones and weird "perfect recordings". Again, this is not what real music sounds like. No wonder why our intellectual leaders have their "bests" and "greatest in 23 years"
Big disappointment #3: mbl 101 did not sound its best on Friday***.

Best sounds best - but I did not hear every room:
Scaena - ARC 250 - Vivaldi. No wonder why this is HP's reference.
TAD - Lamm- MSB- Big sound. Yet so natural. Does audiophile terms yet sounds real. Wow! is TAD the best box speaker on earth?
Von Schweikert - $150K speaker with 4 subs in a very big room. Driven by 25w kronzilla amp?!?!!! Why??!??? GREAT bass, but WAY underpowered in the room to sound real. Has potential.
YG- Veloce- Accuphase - nice, but no balls when compared to big systems
Transmission Audio - AMR- Teo - Atma Sphere - Best small system I heard.
Big $200K Focals - Big Pass - had potential, but was not quite there.

Best of Show : MBL 116 - Jolida - United Home Audio Tape Deck

*** After hours best of show: MBL 101 system with Unitied Home Audio. Stayed for only a part of this, but this was the closest to REAL MUSIC. Was getting hit in the chest, just like at a real show. MBL 101's definitely redeemed themselves!

I will try to come back for more. I will try to find time to post pics.

 

[FrantzM]

Definitely worth attending!!!!

I am attracted to systems with big sound, emulation of real dynamics, and natural tone. Hooked up with some friends for some live Chicago Blues after the show to recalibrate my reference.

Big disappointment #1: Too many audiophiles listening to pathetic audiophile music. If you like ladies singing, that's great. But that's not what real music sounds like
Big disappointment #2: Famous audio reviewers judging systems by playing tones and weird "perfect recordings". Again, this is not what real music sounds like. No wonder why our intellectual leaders have their "bests" and "greatest in 23 years"
Big disappointment #3: mbl 101 did not sound its best on Friday***.

Best sounds best - but I did not hear every room:
Scaena - ARC 250 - Vivaldi. No wonder why this is HP's reference.
TAD - Lamm- MSB- Big sound. Yet so natural. Does audiophile terms yet sounds real. Wow! is TAD the best box speaker on earth?
Von Schweikert - $150K speaker with 4 subs in a very big room. Driven by 25w kronzilla amp?!?!!! Why??!??? GREAT bass, but WAY underpowered in the room to sound real. Has potential.
YG- Veloce- Accuphase - nice, but no balls when compared to big systems
Transmission Audio - AMR- Teo - Atma Sphere - Best small system I heard.
Big $200K Focals - Big Pass - had potential, but was not quite there.

Best of Show : MBL 116 - Jolida - United Home Audio Tape Deck

*** After hours best of show: MBL 101 system with Unitied Home Audio. Stayed for only a part of this, but this was the closest to REAL MUSIC. Was getting hit in the chest, just like at a real show. MBL 101's definitely redeemed themselves!

I will try to come back for more. I will try to find time to post pics.

This to me is a real problem. That "audiophile" affectation with some vaguely jazzy music, as you pointed out a woman singing and a music that leave most people including those demonstrating, artic cold. You would go to many (another bizarre thing if you ask me) Youtube videos of systems and it is always that: a jazzy tune with a woman singing and shots of the equipment bling , I digress.. All this in glorious mp3
Scaena.. Virtually unspoken of in the audiophile press, a stupendous speaker from the small to the mid ( I haven't heard the full floor to ceiling line source with the 4 subwoofer). I would like to do a hear "Marty"-treatment of Scaena, you know: remove the scaena subs and replace them with subwoofers of my own choosing with my own DSP.
Von Schweikert: I can't fully understand why they do that so consistently: demo their gear with underpowered amps... I believe JackD201 mentioned such ialso infrom another expo...

Thanks for the head-up. I was thinking quietly to go but will make it up with my first RMAF (and first Audio shows in several years!!)

 

[caesar]

Frantz,

Yes, Scaena is very, very special. The audiophile elite press don't like it because it doesn't "image well". Neither, does MBL. Neither does live music!!! But those systems present the whole so damn well and make you forget the audiophile terms and put you in a state of flow. Would love to hear the United Tape machine on a Scaena for apples to apples comparison.

As for Von Schweikert, I just don't understand! I spoke to Dr. Von Schweikert. He is a brilliant man, a rocket scientist. But he seems to lack business sense, playing that small amp for his speaker debut. There's a big difference between trying to win and winning. It's like he is afraid to go all out and win.

I do highly recommend you attend RMAF. It is much bigger than Axpona. Occasionally, designers are present and you can quiz them about things argued here on this site and get their perspective. My biggest advice, is to put on a New Yorker, big chutzpa, personality when you go and ask the guys running the room to play your favorite music. That's the only real way to judge systems, IMHO. As passionate as you are about this hobby, you will have a blast!

 

[microstrip]

(...) Yes, Scaena is very, very special. The audiophile elite press don't like it because it doesn't "image well". (...)

Caesar,

Thanks for providing us with fresh opinions on AXPONA. However, I can not understand from where comes this idea that the Audiophile press doesn't like Scaena, as it had got extensive coverage and praise by the main US magazines. I I have no doubts that most people say they are fabulous but surely their distribution network is limited and this will limit press interest - why going on giving extensive coverage to a product that is not easily available and has a site that is one of the less informative ones in the net?

 

[asiufy]

I've seen pics of the woofer unit on those Scaenas, and it wasn't pretty...
IIRC, Valin reviewed those, and had issues with the bass units. These keep being "upgraded", as the posts on HP's site mention.


alexandre

 

[rblnr]

I've seen pics of the woofer unit on those Scaenas, and it wasn't pretty...
IIRC, Valin reviewed those, and had issues with the bass units. These keep being "upgraded", as the posts on HP's site mention.


alexandre

I'm a Scaena dealer and can tell you that there are only two versions of the woofer. The original, and the current model that has new driver and cabinet. HPs system evolved from the original woofers to the current ones and then to a stack of the current ones.

As of last year there is a new ribbon tweeter available -- the Raven Alize -- this is offered in addition to the less expensive original planar units.

One of the reasons there aren't a ton of dealers is that they are very labor intensive to setup. You have individual stack each midrange pod on site and wire them together. Then program the digital crossover to the subs. It's a minimum of thirty or so boxes of stuff.

I installed a system in Brazil with the full eighteen driver high line arrays and two woofers per side and thought it sounded phenomenal.

Valin has always had a problem with the bass units, he thinks they're too big (18") to integrate and says as much every show. They absolutely did not work well in his room, which if you saw it, would understand immediately why. No bigger speaker would have chance in it.

As an aside to an earlier post about the woofers, I'm going to insert a DSPeaker anti-mode 2.0 into the subwoofer path this week and experiment with that.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

OT

One of those audiophiles myths that refuse to die: That of the "slow" woofer. So a 15 inch is perceived as incapable of meshing with the "fast" midrange, itself trying to keep up with the even "faster" tweeter .. Many audiophiles unfortunately cotton to this notion.

 

[rblnr]

IMO, some reviewers and audiophiles have already decided about the 18" woofers before their butt hits the chair.

 

[MarinJim]

Mark, with your speaker and subs, this will show them off wonderfully.

http://www.amazon.com/Touch-Yello-V...F8&qid=1362419158&sr=8-3&keywords=touch+yello
View attachment 8559

I used it at CES, and it was one of the most requested tracks from people coming in the door, and the most detested tracks from the rooms surrounding us.

I was hoping to be there supporting my dealer and distributor, but with the state of my back I might not be able to crawl off the plane after we land. So, unfortunately I'm going to have to sit (or lie) this one out.

The import cd is out of stock. I also like Flim and the BB"S Tricyle for a nice drum roll.

 

[microstrip]

IMHO explaining and understanding audiophiles myths would be much better than derogating them and the audiophiles.

Unhappily this myth was mainly created by experience.

In order to get decent bass from a large woofer its structure and magnetic components must be properly engineered, something that costs money to develop and implement. Also the amplifier needs to be able to driver it properly, as the EMF of a large surface speaker will be greater than that of a smaller similar unit. Not forgetting that bass performance depends a lot on room and placement, and many times a larger speaker will not be allowed to be placed in the same place of a smaller one. As most of the times large area woofers are just small speakers systems with large cones of poor quality, their bass quality is very poor. All this created many conditions where a large woofer sounded slow and muddy.

Please go through the technical notes of Wilson Audio or JLAudio and you will immediately understand why audiophiles have a prudent reaction versus very large woofers. Do you know that the great Krell subwoofer had two 15" units having accelerometers in a feedback loop?

One of "fastest" bass I have ever listened came from a 24" Hartley woofer. The box had a volume around 500 litter, the double wall was made from 3/4 plywood with gap filled with sand. Happily the midrange was fast enough to match it ...

BTW most people only thing about woofer area and forgot about Vas - the equivalent compliance volume,. Large woofers and small boxes are not properly casual friends. Many designers forget it.

 

[MarinJim]

Fat bloated bass is up there with screeching highs. Once again, IMHO, it is the design and implementation with quality construction. I have heard speaker with 4x8" woofs per enclosure that knocked my socks off, and I have also heard the very good 15"ers in a speaker.

 

[FrantzM]

IMHO explaining and understanding audiophiles myths would be much better than derogating them and the audiophiles.

Unhappily this myth was mainly created by experience.

In order to get decent bass from a large woofer its structure and magnetic components must be properly engineered, something that costs money to develop and implement. Also the amplifier needs to be able to driver it properly, as the EMF of a large surface speaker will be greater than that of a smaller similar unit. Not forgetting that bass performance depends a lot on room and placement, and many times a larger speaker will not be allowed to be placed in the same place of a smaller one. As most of the times large area woofers are just small speakers systems with large cones of poor quality, their bass quality is very poor. All this created many conditions where a large woofer sounded slow and muddy.

Please go through the technical notes of Wilson Audio or JLAudio and you will immediately understand why audiophiles have a prudent reaction versus very large woofers. Do you know that the great Krell subwoofer had two 15" units having accelerometers in a feedback loop?

One of "fastest" bass I have ever listened came from a 24" Hartley woofer. The box had a volume around 500 litter, the double wall was made from 3/4 plywood with gap filled with sand. Happily the midrange was fast enough to match it ...

BTW most people only thing about woofer area and forgot about Vas - the equivalent compliance volume,. Large woofers and small boxes are not properly casual friends. Many designers forget it.

Stating a myth is derogation? It is a myth that larger woofer "slow". Pure and simple. The same engineering problems exist in a small woofer if it is to go as low as a large one while producing the same SPL at the same level of distortion.
Bass requires that you move air, simple and intuitive. You achieve it with a large surface moving a little or a smaller surface moving much more ... Both poses engineering problems of their own. There is no free lunch. As for large speakers having more EMF than small one while producing the same frequencies at the same SPL, I would like to see proof. I have my doubts.
You are correct bass performance is a function of room and placement and there whether it be a 15, 18 or 24 if paced at the same position and reproducing the same frequencies at the same level .. well same problems in term of reproduction ... I am not sure the logistics of a larger woofer are as particular as you make them to be but ...
I do know the Krell sub had accelerometer, Servo speakers have been around for a long time I had in my house when a teen the Philips Motional Feedback Active speakers and I believe Genesis still use them and Ryhtmik too. BTW I never found the Krell woofer to be anything special so "great" is your choice of word not mine... I would sure prefer a Seaton Submersive or a JL Audio or a Paradigm Sub2 or a DIY with opposed TC Sound LMS 400 in a sealed box..or a Danley Sounds TPH-10. No wonder it died a quick death on the marketplace by the way it uses TC Sound drivers ... Wilson uses large woofers in their design routinely and from time to time the odd 18 inch .. So what gives ? As for JL Audio they use 13 inch in their largest subwoofer .. a choice. Paradigm uses even smaller in theirs, Seaton uses 15 inch , Wilson 15", Von Schwiekert 15 and Hartley once in a while 24 as you said so ....
The box volume is function of many things amongs them Vas not so much of the diameter .. If you need low bass you must move air and that is Vas and this is a function of both diameter and excursion. For a smaller diameter you need more excursion ... to achieve same Vas ... you may have to put more of the small ones ..
Never heard a 24" subwoofer. Have heard several 18 inches designs and in my book for real low bass if I can I go big

.. The Wilson X-2 uses 15 inch and 13" woofers, never sounded "slow" to me ....

Thus the myth of "slow" woofer needs to be dispelled.

A larger woofer does not mean "slow" bass

 

[microstrip]

Stating a myth is derogation? It is a myth that larger woofer "slow". Pure and simple. The same engineering problems exist in a small woofer if it is to go as low as a large one while producing the same SPL at the same level of distortion..
(...)
A larger woofer does not mean "slow" bass

Frantz,

Stating that a generally accepted fact is a myth and linking it with your general feeling about audiophiles is derogation. Sorry. We are addressing the exceptions in the successful cases we refer - happy to know this time we consider that extra money well spent. Go to ebay or a general DIY speaker shop catalog and look for the typical 18" woofer that is being sold there. Most are around usd 100. They will probably sound slow.

Considering that the same engineering problems exist in a small and in a large woofer shows you are not considering that speakers having small woofers usually have many woofers. In general, no one will try moving the same amount of air with a small woofer than with a large one. Of course, bass is an engineering problem and engineering problems have many solutions, some are more cost effective than others.

My other experiences from the past - the first model of the KEF 105 and the original B&W 801. Both the 105/II and the 802 (similar models using each two smaller 8" woofers had faster bass. Another slow bass - the Snell type A. A fast bass with many woofers - the Revel Salon2.

Ok, I reformulate - if cost is a concern, most probably a large woofer means "slow" bass.

 

[caesar]

Update: Von Schweikert is sounding much better today. The good doctor must have tweaked something in the system last night or this morning. I still feel the system is underpowered with a 25 watt amp, but there is no doubt that the new speaker is one of the world's best.

The MBL 101 system is sounding much better today as well.

Also, the Sony system driven by Hegel and $2,500 Rega turntable is very special also.