Master Built-What are Owners Hearing That They Didn't Hear With Other Cables

[DonH50]

In Steve's system thread, he posted the following information:

I discussed this with Leif and he states that the Master Built engineers voice the cable for 3 things 1. Low reactance 2. Low capacitance 3. they must be neutral. IOW signal coming out is identical to that going in

[/I]Does #2 tell you anything about inductance?

Generally lower capacitance implies higher inductance but it depends upon the cable topology and target impedance. "Low reactance" implies low capacitance and low inductance. The characteristic impedance is related to sqrt(L/C). Small L and small C are hard to get simultaneously and that may be their "secret sauce". A thick dielectric (insulator between center conductor and outer shield) reduces capacitance, as does a low dielectric constant (could be air*), but that increases inductance. A very thick center conductor with thin dielectric yields a cable with low inductance but high capacitance. Their special material might allow them to better optimize both reactances at once, I do not know. Or perhaps they reduced capacitance at the cost of increased inductance; that would explain some of the HF filter effect people seem to be reporting (my interpretation).

* A number of microwave and above cables use air as the dielectric, with just internal "wafers" or discs to keep the center conductor in place, and similar construction with nitrogen inside the cable is used for some high-power transmission lines. Waveguides are used for mmW and above (30 - 300 GHz).

 

[microstrip]

Did you read the introduction section right past that abstract?

As you see it says exactly what I said in my post. That the issue of free radicals and such are of concern in aging of the insulation where it matters (e.g. high voltage lines). They use electricity in this paper for accelerated aging, again as I mentioned.

Importantly there is no mention of Maxwell-Wagner that you said is in play here.

Al asked a good question which was relevance of free radicals to audio performance. You gave him a random answer which has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Here is the company quote again:

"b) Dielectric absorption of the high frequency component of the music signal by the insulation material creates a non-linear response. Since most elements have “free radical” electrons in their atomic makeup, the musical signal will be affected when the electrons collide with the dielectric’s “free radical” electrons. This distortion creates a “fog” over the music that masks realism. MB’s solution is to use dielectric materials that do not alter the electrical signal. Our proprietary formulation consists of vacuum-formed Teflon, which is as close to perfection as possible in reducing dielectric distortion. Our Teflon coating is applied with a proprietary method that does not result in free radical Teflon electrons placed in the signal path."

We care about music here, not how high-voltage cable insulation can degrade. Do you have any relevant research to parts I have highlighted???

The processes by which the cables degrade can be physically similar to the processes that cause cable burn-in.
Fortunately Al. is a scientist and a chemist and will be able to understand the connection between charge traps and dielectric burn-in and/or will ask the proper questions. Curious that you walk away from the Harman claims, a zone where you have expertise, and focus only on the MB, that everyone acknowledges is just marketing.

 

[thedudeabides]

We care about music here

Really? I assume you don't include yourself in that comment. You seem to be obsessed with other issues unrelated to enjoying music.

 

[ack]

Their special material might allow them to better optimize both reactances at once, I do not know. Or perhaps they reduced capacitance at the cost of increased inductance; that would explain some of the HF filter effect people seem to be reporting (my interpretation).

On the highlighted sentence, that's my interpretation as well - higher inductance. Personally, I would not care for HF filtering effects.

 

[MadFloyd]

Generally lower capacitance implies higher inductance but it depends upon the cable topology and target impedance. "Low reactance" implies low capacitance and low inductance. The characteristic impedance is related to sqrt(L/C). Small L and small C are hard to get simultaneously and that may be their "secret sauce". A thick dielectric (insulator between center conductor and outer shield) reduces capacitance, as does a low dielectric constant (could be air*), but that increases inductance. A very thick center conductor with thin dielectric yields a cable with low inductance but high capacitance. Their special material might allow them to better optimize both reactances at once, I do not know. Or perhaps they reduced capacitance at the cost of increased inductance; that would explain some of the HF filter effect people seem to be reporting (my interpretation).

By HF filter effect do you mean HF roll-off? Who has reported this?

 

[DonH50]

As I said, my interpretation of some of the earlier posts. Insignificant speculation per Steve, just ignore it.

There is a theory that ultrasonic information is required due to beat frequencies that fall within the audible range.

Extended HF has lost much for me at my age; the 22-24 kHz range I had in college is now in the 10-12 kHz range.

 

[Leif S]

MasterBuilt is not rolling off the highs even in the well above audible range. The point is not to act as a filter.

 

[JackD201]

Exactly and that is why a typical reaction is that the guys who have swapped them in all report that one doesn't need to go as high up in volume to get the life in. It's not an increase in gain because obviously that is impossible. It's just that balance and coherence is achieved much earlier as one goes up in SPL from zero. The main trait of these cables is that it also holds that composure to stupid levels. It's not a "sweet spot" thing. More of a sweet range. This flexibility is a big deal for me. I don't always want to chill nor do I always want to go nuts. One should always, always have a reference level but it doesn't mean you should be stuck to it.

 

[dafos]

Precisely Jack, these past weeks with the masterbuilt cables in place what really surprised me is how satisfying it was to play at low levels with all the life in the music intact, without any urge to jack up the volume. Of course, if you wanna push the pedal to the metal, the system maintains its poise and smoothly sails thru complex passages where I used to cringe.

Now, this may not be the proper forum for this but the new ARC ref 6 seems like a damned goood preamp, more vivid and dynamic than what I recall from the ref anniversary and a touch more forward. It's also being fed by a signature power cord that cost more than half the ref 6's price, but I had to try it cuz that was the only 20 ampere pc jack had since none of his electronics use the 20 amp connection. In fairness, Jack warned me, "your sure you wanna try it?" It's been quite a ride since that fateful Sunday.

 

[Steve Williams]

Hi Jerry

With your permission I am going to link Jadis comments about your system

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...mazing-Systems&p=435470&viewfull=1#post435470

 

[Steve Williams]

What i find so sad about the gazillion pages of the MB threads is that there is NOT a single owner of the cable that reports anything but what every owner here is saying. Rather most all of you skeptics would rather take me and my hearing on and when that doesn't work the professor gives us a lecture on what he considers unscrupulous advertising by MB. FWIW I have only seem one MB cable for sale and its was here by Gavin who loved the cable but with equipment rearranging it proved to be too short and he sold it

Really!!! I saw all of you are looking at this "bass backwards" and can't see the trees for the forest


Focus on the music everyone and what these cables do to your system

Dafos is using Reference line MB cables and is hearing the same magic as confirmed by Jadis

All I ever wanted to do was too introduce this forum to what IMHO and for my ears has proved to be the best cable I have ever heard. Period, End of story.



Perhaps you should all listen and compare it to your existing cables and then let's talk.People talk about the high cost of this cable when in reality Dafos and so many others are using Reference and making comments such as that by Jadis

When one person comes and makes bold comments as to what he is hearing I feel it is perfectly reasonable to question and to have doubt BUT when every owner of this cable has posted here on WBF the exact same thing that all of us owners are hearing then all I can say is that I consider myself lucky to have auditioned this cable and that I feel sorry for all of you naysayers and haters and those that dwell on things such as advertising practices. Those points were valid and well taken and and the info was removed from their website. Yet so many of you can only fixate on this and some will go so far as to call it flip flam advertising. Really!!!

As JackD201 said here a few months ago, that for all of you to remain disinterested helps to shorten the queue lines on these cables as they are going to take at least a month or more.

IMO these 4 engineers from Delphi Aerospace are not only audiophiles but from what I understand are also metallurgists. I could care less about what they are made of and how they are made or to speculate what their "secret sauce" is. All I care about is how they sound and they have transformed my system to a level that I didn't think could exist.

 

[Steve Williams]

Jack warned me, "your sure you wanna try it?" It's been quite a ride since that fateful Sunday.

I'm not even going to mention "Ultra" then

 

[Al M.]

What i find so sad about the gazillion pages of the MB threads is that there is NOT a single owner of the cable that reports anything but what every owner here is saying. Rather most all of you skeptics would rather take me and my hearing on

Really? I didn't. Where did I express any doubts about what you hear with these cables, Steve?

and when that doesn't work the professor gives us a lecture on what he considers unscrupulous advertising by MB.

And I agree that this remains a problem, no matter how good the cables may be. And no, I did not yet get over the CERN/superconductor thing.

 

[Steve Williams]

And no, I did not yet get over the CERN/superconductor thing.

Like I said Al, everyone pays their money and takes their chances. I'm glad I did and have zero regrets. Lucky you though Al as you will be getting a chance soon to hear these cables in a system familiar to you. Maybe then you might have a change of heart. I have said that comments on the advertising were valid and these were removed from the website, Personally I don't believe there was ever an intent to deceive and again I feel bad that you cannot see beyond that Al. Perhaps after you hear the cables

 

[ack]

Really? I didn't. Where did I express any doubts about what you hear with these cables, Steve?



And I agree that this remains a problem, no matter how good the cables may be. And no, I did not yet get over the CERN/superconductor thing.

+1. I have not seen anyone dispute any owner claims regarding the sound they get with these cables; we have not even used the word "marketing" as others have of MIT, for example. However, we have consistently pushed for data, e.g. capacitance/ft and inductance/ft, and anything scientific regarding these cables. And yes, no one in their right mind can forget about the superconductor/CERN thing - that's where it all started. So again, Show Me.

 

[Al M.]

The processes by which the cables degrade can be physically similar to the processes that cause cable burn-in.
Fortunately Al. is a scientist and a chemist and will be able to understand the connection between charge traps and dielectric burn-in and/or will ask the proper questions.

As Amir pointed out, you cannot compare a music signal with a high-voltage application. You may assume that there is a linear connection, i.e. that the problems arising from a high-voltage application also arise at lower energy, but to a lesser extent. That is not necessarily the case. If it isn't, then the dielectric problems in high voltage applications have no bearing on what happens in an audio system.

Also, I would be curious how MB measures the following: "the musical signal will be affected when the electrons collide with the dielectric’s “free radical” electrons."

How do you measure such collisions? Or is it just hypothetical speculation?

 

[Al M.]

Like I said Al, everyone pays their money and takes their chances. I'm glad I did and have zero regrets. Lucky you though Al as you will be getting a chance soon to hear these cables in a system familiar to you. Maybe then you might have a change of heart. I have said that comments on the advertising were valid and these were removed from the website, Personally I don't believe there was ever an intent to deceive and again I feel bad that you cannot see beyond that Al. Perhaps after you hear the cables

I look forward to hear the cables, Steve. Perhaps they are indeed as great as you and other owners say, and I will keep an open mind.

I cannot have a change of heart about the advertising though, even as it still stands. As I implied in my previous post, I would like to see some data backing up their claims. Regardless of how good I may conclude these cables sound.

If they don't want to back up their claims with data, they should modify their advertising to more modest proportions. Otherwise it reads like pseudo-science. As a scientist, I have a problem with that.

 

[nephilim]

I am late to the game. I have heard the Ultras in different systems and love em ... I've yet to try em in my system though. I know what will become of that. lol

 

[mullard88]

Hi nephilim,

Is your plan to install the full loom or to do it in baby steps?

 

[JackD201]

LOL Keith, what say you? LOL