Hi mtemur, I agree! While I am a fan of linear trackers, I also worry about these pivoted linear trackers having too many bearings.
Viv Lab Owners
- Thread starter bonzo75
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does the Schroeder LT have too many bearings? I have heard it three times sound sonically good, including in one direct compare with the older SAT.
mtemur your technical knowledge will be appreciated in the investigation
At @Mike Lavigne the field coil primary control unipivot - which uses the field coil to make the arm more stable - was good on bass, there was no lightness. But Mike is better positioned to compare how the bass is to his previous Durand
To achieve the goal of linear tracking, the Schroeder LT and Reed 5A surely employ more bearings than a normal pivotal arm. Whether that is too many bearing is hard to say, as it depends on the compromise the designer and users are willing to take!
I don’t doubt they sounds good, but so can some other pivoted arms!
Schroeder LT is a tangential tracker according to the info and pictures I saw on the web. It has to have a mechanism similar to Reed 5A but magnets might be used instead of rods. I heard this tonearm at Munich while Ana Mighty people were doing the presentation. I remember I was impressed more by the precisely set cartridge compared to sound.
i did not think it sounded good at Munich but I heard it on the Schroeder idler, continuum, and at Steve Dobbins next to the SAT
I only listened to AF10 tonearm a few times in Munich and in Tokyo. Having not be able to compare AF10 with other arms side by side I can't tell the difference in sonic character of it with other arms. The closest that I got was in Tokyo, upon request, they A/B compared AF1P with AF10 arm and AF3P with Graham Elite arm. The difference was obvious. AF1P/AF10 combo was a lot better.
Many designers and users concentrated the discussion on tracking error and think this is the more important factor that determines the sound quality. I found it is not true. The rigidity of the wand is the most important property. The control of resonance in the wand contributes significantly to the performance. Both SAT and AF10 use carbon fibre with reinforcement to reduce vibration. This ensures good resolution. I am still waiting for my AF10 to arrive and to do a detailed comparison. But it seems me that AF10 is a medium to heavy arm and SAT is certainly a light arm, having both will be able to mount every cartridges in the market with no problem in compliance matching.
Dear All,
The arm is responsible for TRACING and the cartridge is responsible for the TRACKING.
Shibata wrote the book on profiles as far as I am concerned. Hiraga wrote the book on contrarian approaches to better audio.
Marketing gurus did the pamphlets for moving coil cartridges and any other mis-tracking devices.
KIndest regards,G.
The arm is responsible for TRACING and the cartridge is responsible for the TRACKING.
Shibata wrote the book on profiles as far as I am concerned. Hiraga wrote the book on contrarian approaches to better audio.
Marketing gurus did the pamphlets for moving coil cartridges and any other mis-tracking devices.
KIndest regards,G.
I am sure that you can imaging that we tried to find something
caused by these „horrible“ tracking angles intensively.
Looking at the geometry it should something wrong audible
at the first and last songs of an LP.
But „unfortunately“ there was nothing… and I mean nothing, in
direct comparisons to „normal“ tonearms.
And looking at the „argument“ that a sharp diamond turns into
a conical one because of the ViV… thats not true as well.
In my comparisons of the DS Audio cartridges of the second
series (E-1, 002, W-2) with their main difference in shape
(elliptical, Shibata, Micro Ridge) the sound difference were ALWAYS
the same… if its a first track or in the middle of the album side.
So my recommendation is… do not judge before listening to
the ViV Rigid Float. All theory is grey…
caused by these „horrible“ tracking angles intensively.
Looking at the geometry it should something wrong audible
at the first and last songs of an LP.
But „unfortunately“ there was nothing… and I mean nothing, in
direct comparisons to „normal“ tonearms.
And looking at the „argument“ that a sharp diamond turns into
a conical one because of the ViV… thats not true as well.
In my comparisons of the DS Audio cartridges of the second
series (E-1, 002, W-2) with their main difference in shape
(elliptical, Shibata, Micro Ridge) the sound difference were ALWAYS
the same… if its a first track or in the middle of the album side.
So my recommendation is… do not judge before listening to
the ViV Rigid Float. All theory is grey…
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If there is no difference in direct comparison to "normal" tonearms and differences between stylus profiles can be heard "ALWAYS the same" why would I or anyone choose ViV? What's the benefit of ViV when everything is the same like other tonearms?
My original question stays unanswered so, I ask again.
You don't have to follow the rules but what's the benefit, where is the gain? Regarding the design of ViV arms what's the benefit of:
- Omitting overhang and offset when underhang introduces higher tracking error and distortion?
- Omitting anti-skating when skating force also applies to underhung ViV arms and additionally changes it’s direction in the middle?
My original question stays unanswered so, I ask again.
You don't have to follow the rules but what's the benefit, where is the gain? Regarding the design of ViV arms what's the benefit of:
- Omitting overhang and offset when underhang introduces higher tracking error and distortion?
- Omitting anti-skating when skating force also applies to underhung ViV arms and additionally changes it’s direction in the middle?
My question to you is unanswered too. Did you hear tracking error and distortion when listening to ViV? I’m not talking about hooking your software up to it.
@mtemur
I really have the feeling that you do not (want to) understand.
I have not said that there is no audible difference to "normal" tonearms. I said that (like with normal tonearms)
there was no audible difference in the sound quality of the first, middle and last tracks when playing an album.
There IS an audible difference of the ViV compared to normal tonearms. The ViV sounds better... period!
And the magic is that it does so with every cartridge we tried out so far. It really doesn´t matter if the combination
with the headshell is a light or heavy one.
And NO... we didn´t compare all tonearms of the world market against the ViV. But we had a huge variety of
different candidates from DaVinci to Thales to Graham to Fidelity Research to Jelco to Ortofon to Schroeder
to others in our set ups.
*over and out*
I really have the feeling that you do not (want to) understand.
I have not said that there is no audible difference to "normal" tonearms. I said that (like with normal tonearms)
there was no audible difference in the sound quality of the first, middle and last tracks when playing an album.
There IS an audible difference of the ViV compared to normal tonearms. The ViV sounds better... period!
And the magic is that it does so with every cartridge we tried out so far. It really doesn´t matter if the combination
with the headshell is a light or heavy one.
And NO... we didn´t compare all tonearms of the world market against the ViV. But we had a huge variety of
different candidates from DaVinci to Thales to Graham to Fidelity Research to Jelco to Ortofon to Schroeder
to others in our set ups.
*over and out*
Sorry, I missed your question. Quick answer is yes, you can definitely hear tracking error and tracking distortion. I remember hearing ViV in Munich but not impressed if I’m not mistaken. In shows it’s hard to pick the equipment responsible for the final sound.
If you can precisely align zenith angle you notice how everything becomes settled, precise. When zenith angle is wrong sound becomes congested and rushed. It feels as if it becomes a little bit more detailed because of increased distortion and a little bit smooth because of reduced dynamism. You notice how everything becomes precise and focused only after you aligned zenith back to precision. Precisely aligned zenith is not just aligning cantilever to the line on protractor. I tried fiddling with zenith alignment many times and always heard a great improvement on sound. Other members can explain their experiences with zenith better than me. You may say what’s zenith got to do with tracking error. Zenith is directly related with tracking error, when it’s not aligned precisely the tracking error increases. ViV is ruining zenith by it’s approach.
Now, I’m not asking directly to you @djsina2 but I wonder will I get logical answers to my questions or I should rely on the prior comment that ViV is magical?
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Yes, probably impossible to pick out the arm in a system you have no experience with. I don’t think anyone is going to argue and say precisely aligning a cartridge is a bad thing. I have definitely experienced what you describe with typical arms. However, for me, ViV is doing something different which supersedes the standard rules. As soon as I put it in it was clearly obvious it was better to me than typical arms I’ve used in the past. I was mostly using conical cartridges with my ViV. Now I use a different arm which also does not follow any standard geometry or even allow for any adjustments and the sound is like nothing I’ve heard before.
I'm continuing to try to understand why those who try the VivLabs arm report so positively, when the logical arguments would suggest otherwise. I did come across a thread elsewhere that attributes the effect to the scrubbing motion of the stylus when the cantilever moves horizontally or vertically. The reasoning appears sound and the linked videos recording the output certainly show a difference (I'd suggest watching/listening before you see the two tonearms used!)
I have several tonearm pods that are currently unused, which would allow me to position an arm so the stylus is underhung, and it would be trivial to drill one hole in an SME 309 headshell (I have plenty) to mount a cartridge without offset. I'm tempted to find out for myself when the appalling hot weather is gone and I can fire up the tubes.
I have several tonearm pods that are currently unused, which would allow me to position an arm so the stylus is underhung, and it would be trivial to drill one hole in an SME 309 headshell (I have plenty) to mount a cartridge without offset. I'm tempted to find out for myself when the appalling hot weather is gone and I can fire up the tubes.
Likely would tell you nothing since your other arm structure is nothing like the ViV. The arms are so cheap, why not try one?
Spin Doctor #17: Paging Dr. Löfgren, ViV Laboratory's Rigid Float 9ha tonearm
It started one evening when I was killing time watching YouTube videos and stumbled across a 2017 talk given by Jonathan Carr, Lyra's brilliant cartridge designer (footnote 1). After discussing his design and Lyra's manufacturing processes for about 18 minutes, Carr opens the floor to questions...
www.stereophile.com
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