Measurements and the Correlation of What We Hear

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yeah, try to keep up, Steve.

Tim

 

[Gregadd]

Have you heard Steve's system?

 

[Steve williams]

Steve,
This post is more than a year old - as you are a good audiophile you should have now changed at less half of your system. Otherwise you are not enjoying the hobby!

Honestly I have no desires to change anything. Perhaps add something or two

 

[mep]

That's a great place to be Steve.

 

[mauidan]

Honestly I have no desires to change anything. Perhaps add something or two

If you look at the Wilson Audio timeline (http://www.wilsonaudio.com/company_timeline.shtml), it seems like the the X2 is due for an update or replacement.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

If you look at the Wilson Audio timeline (http://www.wilsonaudio.com/company_timeline.shtml), it seems like the the X2 is due for an update or replacement.

Oh, that was cold-hearted.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

A turntable? A server? A sub?

Two subs! Hehehehehe!

 

[Steve williams]

If you look at the Wilson Audio timeline (http://www.wilsonaudio.com/company_timeline.shtml), it seems like the the X2 is due for an update or replacement.

They're way over due for an update Jack but since I bought my current X-2's til present day I have retired and I am really happy with what I have

 

[Old Listener]

I don’t know what percentage of our members believe that audio electronics are improving every year (or pick your own periodicity), but for arguments sake, let’s say that many do believe electronics are steadily improving....

If we believe that components are steadily getting better with regards to sound quality (more accurate, more neutral for example), do we have any measurements that graphically show us how/why components today are better sounding than components of say five years ago?...
...
In summary, my question is if today’s components are better sounding than last year’s or five years ago, what measurements tell us that is true?

I think that your premises don't apply to all audiophiles. Audiophiles don't all share the same beliefs about the rate of improvement or the magnitude of the improvement. Audiophiles don't agree on what is better either; others have suggested that audiophiles are miostly talking about what they prefer rather than something that is agreed upon as better. It would be quite odd to talk about progress in matching gear to individual preference.

I think that box swappers and those who pursue hearing differences as a hobby are far more likely to think that the rate and magnitude of progress toward perfection have been large than are people who have kept their systems unchanged for years and who don't actively look for differences very often.

Those who think that progress has been modest are more likely to think that the usual set of measurements are adequate to describe the performance of audio electronics.

Bill

 

[JackD201]

They're way over due for an update Jack but since I bought my current X-2's til present day I have retired and I am really happy with what I have

That was Dan

 

[Gregadd]

OMG, the better word! more expensive yeah I know what that means. Care to show how you decided that Nelson Pass keeps making better amps...what criteria are you using? OK, just joshing you, no need to search out "specs", cause they do not improve as each model is introduced do they? Better.....huumm. uh, different, bingo! Same goes for most of the audio big boys with of course a few notable exceptions.

He knows everything, including adjusting his amps to purposely generate some even order distortion cause it "sounds" better. Not all amps...a notable exception is his distortion reducing circuits used in current genration op amps that have thd readings like 0.0003% and less.....he damn well knows what he is doing and patents divulged some ofthte things he keeps close to his vest, but I agree he probably has a few more he is not revealing.


Tom

He is your example of "knowing all there is to know about amps." The fact that they are more expensive is self evident. As far as being better that's his claim. I can only assume he really thinks they are better. If not he is either incompetent (that is at odds with your claim that he is omniscient about all things amplifier related) or that he is engaged in some slight of hand (that would make him corrupt).

Are you privy to any measurements revealing he has purposely added even order distortion to "make it sound better?" Or were you accusing someone else? Would you care to name names?

 

[caesar]

Seems like this argument pops up every other day. Bottom line is that everyone needs to figure out the following for themselves and trust himself: is audio an experience like a dining experience, a perfume, a dating experience or is it objective. If you believe the latter, buy yourself a system for a few hundred bucks like Ethan Winer did and be happy. And if you believe it is objective, why are you bothering hanging out audio sites anyways? Go to rolling stone.com or amazon and read up on the music you will enjoy...

Personally, I can't tell how a cookie tastes by reading the nutrition label. I can't tell if I can marry someone from reading a description on a dating site. And I can't atomize easily and effectively the audio sound from a few measurements of a component. Rather I need to hear it to discover the nuances on how it moves me emotionally.

I guess we keep seeing these posts because some people just like to argue...

 

[RogerD]

Nelson posts regularly over on the DIY forum, probably more info that anybody could ask for about his thoughts and methods,straight from the horses mouth.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/search.php?searchid=3395107


p.s. btw, whenever I am researching a project,this diy forum is the 1st place I look to, tons of valuable info and how the many variables can effect the performance of gear you may buy. Kind of like how they make sausage,but much prettier and interesting.

 

[Gregadd]

I think these are important areas. If you show me where he says his latest amp is better (whatever that means?), I will show you where he says he designed in even order distortions.

And we would not be singling him out as this is the game they most all play and the purchasers of the equipment buy into.


Tom

These arguments never go anywhere because people bail out on some tangent. You have already designed your escape hatch by challenging what "better" means. .
As they say curiosity killed the cat.
I took this from The pass website:
In 2002 the first XA amplifiers were released, combining the X and Aleph topologies into balanced single-ended Class A amplifiers with many of the characteristics of both the X and Aleph series. The XA200 was rated at 200 watts mono, the XA160 was 160 watts.

In 2003 the company produced the X150.5, the first major improvement of the X150 amplifier, and followed it with “.5” revisions to the other X amplifiers through 2003 and 2005.

In 2007 Pass Labs is applying the “.5” advances to the XA series of amplifiers, with the XA100.5, XA60.6, and XA30.5 shipping as of this writing. These revisions dramatically lower distortion and noise and also dramatically improved the performance of the amplifiers into low impedance loads.

You did not say how far you wanted to go back.
http://www.linearaudio.nl/interviews/np.pdf

Your turn.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Personally, I can't tell how a cookie tastes by reading the nutrition label.

Can you tell whether or not it is a sugar-free cookie? Can you tell if it contains trans fats? The caloric content?

These are the points at which your analogy would fit audio measurement. Not "I can't tell how a cookie tastes by reading the nutrition label."

Tim

 

[Old Listener]

is audio an experience like a dining experience, a perfume, a dating experience or is it objective. If you believe the latter, buy yourself a system for a few hundred bucks like Ethan Winer did and be happy. And if you believe it is objective, why are you bothering hanging out audio sites anyways? Go to rolling stone.com or amazon and read up on the music you will enjoy...

I'm here because I've been interested in audio playback for over 40 years and continue to be so. I like to learn from what I read on audio forums and sites like Stereophile and Soundstage.com which have test results and measurements! I enjoy learning more about audio. I was attracted by Sean Olive's early posts and I find value in the posts of a number of other people on this forum.

I can't tell if I can marry someone from reading a description on a dating site.

I'll offer a different analogy. When my wife and I travel in the USA, I check yelp.com and other sites for leads on god places to eat in places we will pass through. I may only be eating one meal in a city and I'd like to improve my chances on enjoying that meal. I want to improve my odds by reading and narrowing the choices before I get to that city.

I don't make that many audio purchases and I expect to live with my purchases for a long time. It is harder and harder to audition gear in a way that tells me anything about its value in my system. I want to be well informed before I spend my scarce cash. (I realize that the evaluations on yelp are subjective but my analogy is about the relation of learning to purchasing. I use whatever information I can find and evaluate its relevance to my needs.)

I guess we keep seeing these posts because some people just like to argue...

This thread was started by mep on the theme that the measurements don't document the "progress" in audio electronics of recent years. I see lots of other threads started by audiophiles who want to assert that their choices are superior and that those who disagree aren't really audiophiles. Is it any wonder that such threads produce a reaction?

Bill

 

[mep]

This thread was started by mep on the theme that the measurements don't document the "progress" in audio electronics of recent years. Bill

It's really that I don't think measurements give you a single clue as to why two different components that both measure very well on the test bench sound different from each other and which measurment will tell you which one sounds better. And that assumes you even really have any measurements to look at and not just some spec sheets.

I did list some examples to make people think about what I was saying.

 

[Gregadd]

It's really that I don't think measurements give you a single clue as to why two different components that both measure very well on the test bench sound different from each other and which measurment will tell you which one sounds better. And that assumes you even really have any measurements to look at and not just some spec sheets.

I did list some examples to make people think about what I was saying.

Don't you get it MEP ? They do sound the same. Any difference is in YOUR head.

 

[Gregadd]

 

[MylesBAstor]

Do you have one of a duck quacking?