Measurements and the Correlation of What We Hear
- Thread starter mep
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Old Listener, I think we are on the same page. Yelp is about sharing subjective experiences of restaurants, etc., while the WBF is about sharing subjective audio experiences. I don't understand why those that believe that measurements are the end all be all don't follow the path blazed by Ethan Winer - buy a $49 cd player, cheap studio monitors, and room treatments, and listen to good music until the end of time. Seems like this has been argued out ad nauseum...
My timing's a bit behind in responding, and I am obviously repeating myself, but what Roger's talking about is the real name of the game. Being able to measure THAT is what the industry needs to get sorted out, and anything else is nibbling around the edges, you're playing with kiddy blocks ...
Frank
Also well behind, but the talk about 94, 97, 105 dB noise levels is total nonsense: something 60 versus 100 dB is useful, but in terms of predicting which is the better unit to listen to it's completely useless ...
Frank
Frank
I'm being very boring here, responding seriously, but the point is still that any measurements you can get hold of tell you sweet FA about which works better in the flesh. When was the last time you bought a car that had measurements that told you how well it handled bumpy roads? The glossy brochures for vehicles barely give a hint with their specs of what the vehicle will feel like in day to day use, but the latter is what's all important! Now, the auto engineers could give you vasts reams of data defining those qualities, and specialists could condense all that down to very precise and simple quality ratings. But no-one has bothered to do that in over 100 years of car development!! So what hope has the audio buying public have ...
Frank
Originally Posted by caesar
...while the WBF is about sharing subjective audio experiences....
Really?? Sharing subjective audio experiences may not be THE reason, but it is certainly one of the reasons why this forum exists and continues to flourish. By definition, any time you sit down and listen to your stereo system and share your experience with others, your feelings and thoughts are subjective.
...while the WBF is about sharing subjective audio experiences....
Really?? Sharing subjective audio experiences may not be THE reason, but it is certainly one of the reasons why this forum exists and continues to flourish. By definition, any time you sit down and listen to your stereo system and share your experience with others, your feelings and thoughts are subjective.
By definition, and no disagreement here but, right at the top of our home page, we have set forth our Mission Statement:
We all have different reasons for visiting WBF, and we hope to offer something for everyone, including without limitation those who wish to share subjective audio experiences. However we have no interest in limiting this forum to "sharing subjective audio experiences", the precise statement which I quoted and to which I responded. Some of us, of course, are only interested in this and there are plenty of threads with such content. Some of us are only interested in the science of audio and there are such threads as well, to state nothing of the technical library being amassed. And then some of us are interested in all matters audio and video, both subjective and objective.
Then perhaps the better answer is what you just gave rather than a sweeping NOT. Different strokes for different folks but NOT indicates the exclusion of anyone wanting to speak and exhange ideas about the sound of high-end audio gear and music.
Putting all kidding aside.Keeping our egos in check. Subverting our financial interest. Acknowledging that there is no magic or alchemy. Accounting for our prejudices. A long winded way of saying "all things being equal."
I believe that measurements are very revealing! Whew! How could they not be? Despite all the name calling, all designers measure. Clearly they only take us part of the way home. Frank I get your point about car measurements. The fact is if we could not predict how a car behaves in a curve there would be a lot more dead people.
It all boils down to the fact there are so many variables and so many conflicting influences that it is difficult to reach any consensus about the parameters. Even when there is a consensus those who know what is correct are afraid to risk retaliation from their fellow manufacturers, reviewers, and most importantly their customers. I recall quizzing Alon Wolf. You would think he was taking his oral exam for his engineering degree. What we are left with is a hodge podge of rules and products with no real way for the end user to sort it out.
What we end up doing is applying our necessarily limited knowledge to the available products. Hopefully we come up with something that allows us to come close to the music. So far the results are as varied as those attempts to create it.
I believe that measurements are very revealing! Whew! How could they not be? Despite all the name calling, all designers measure. Clearly they only take us part of the way home. Frank I get your point about car measurements. The fact is if we could not predict how a car behaves in a curve there would be a lot more dead people.
It all boils down to the fact there are so many variables and so many conflicting influences that it is difficult to reach any consensus about the parameters. Even when there is a consensus those who know what is correct are afraid to risk retaliation from their fellow manufacturers, reviewers, and most importantly their customers. I recall quizzing Alon Wolf. You would think he was taking his oral exam for his engineering degree. What we are left with is a hodge podge of rules and products with no real way for the end user to sort it out.
What we end up doing is applying our necessarily limited knowledge to the available products. Hopefully we come up with something that allows us to come close to the music. So far the results are as varied as those attempts to create it.
Don't mean to pile on, Ron, but you sound like a guy who is afraid of being sued. (Are you a lawyer?)
Of course that's the mission statement, but in the scheme of things we are talking about judgments based on individual personal impressions and feelings and opinions rather than external facts. All the other stuff in the mission statement is to support and enhance our subjective enjoyment of music via great equipment. There are dozens of audio brands out there for a reason.
I was looking for current measurement standards in high fidelity and could not find any thing recent : just the old DIN, the two versions of IHF, and an interesting article :
http://www.bassboy.com.au/getreel/classicamps/files/articles/ihf/article.htm ,
from where I quote the following sentence about the introduction of the 1966 IHF standard:
"Over the years, it has become increasingly evident to IHF members that the previous amplifier Standard was inadequate for two principal reasons: (1) two amplifiers could test the same, but sound radically different; and (2) additional specification parameters were needed to provide goals for the engineer working for design improvements. The solution to both these problems is a more comprehensive set of tests and measurements, and this is what the new Standard provides."
What is the most recent measuring standard for measuring audio electronics?
http://www.bassboy.com.au/getreel/classicamps/files/articles/ihf/article.htm ,
from where I quote the following sentence about the introduction of the 1966 IHF standard:
"Over the years, it has become increasingly evident to IHF members that the previous amplifier Standard was inadequate for two principal reasons: (1) two amplifiers could test the same, but sound radically different; and (2) additional specification parameters were needed to provide goals for the engineer working for design improvements. The solution to both these problems is a more comprehensive set of tests and measurements, and this is what the new Standard provides."
What is the most recent measuring standard for measuring audio electronics?
I think #1 is still true today and it's not limited to amplifiers. I wish JA would chime in here.
To get back on topic, and straight off the top of my head, a test technique that would tell you oodles about what's going on inside an amplifier: two test frequencies at 40-60dB down, looking at the intermodulation (IM) distortion spectrum. Then add a very low bass frequency, below 100Hz, at the same level, and pop it up 10dB at a time to maximum, and keep capturing the IM spectrum as you go. Guarantee you it will tell vast amounts about what distinguishes two amplifiers, and also guarantee that absolutely no-one will try doing such for the next 20 years ...
Frank
Frank
Have you done such testing, Frank? Do you have any documentation of your own (or of others) to share that supports this statement? Without some foundation, such suppositions are only conjecture.
Lee
You're dead right it's only conjecture, I did say it was something straight off the top of my head. What that test does is measure how the distortion spectrum in the region where the music action is happening varies according to how heavily the power supply is stressed, the very amplifier behaviour that everyone sees happen over and over again: they compress, go harsh, lose coherence as you wind up the volume, irrespective of what the conventional THD measurements tell you.
And it's exactly what the work I do in tweaking components addresses ...
Frank
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