Measuring the Power Grid

[wil]

I've been curious about my power grid measurements for some time, primarily to see if a neighborhood water pump station, with it's powerful electric motor might be compromising my power quality. It is located one Utility pole down from our house. Though the pump station has two utility transformers before the line reaches the transformer near our place, the Current distortions measured here make me wonder if their motors are effecting our power.

As shown in the pictures below:

-- Voltage (blue) looks pretty good. The waveform top is a little rough but I'm guessing this is pretty typical of decent grid power. THD ranges from 1.8 to 2.5%. The harmonics are odd order in the 3rd, 7th and 9th. Notably absent are 5th order which Ralph of Atmasphere has told me can be troublesome for audio. As I understand, being at 300 hz it is particularly audible.

One question I have: Is an odd order harmonics profile typical of utility power?

-- Current (shown in red) is very distorted. It's better with the audio system powered down, but it is still distorted between 50 and 90% THD and in the 3rd, 7th,9th like the Voltage. I have tried to diagnose if the Current distortion is due to sources within the house by methodically switching off breakers and have found no connection. The only action that (marginally) improves the waveform is 1. powering down stereo and 2. Adding 500 watts of of resistive power in the form of incandescent light bulbs.

So, from what I've read, the likely cause of this much Current distortion could be the influence of Inductive power motors and their Variable Speed Motor Controllers -- which I presume is what the Pump Station uses.

The main question I have regarding the Current distortion : Is this likely to be compromising my audio system? A quick check with the AI gods tell me that Current THD is more critical to power quality than Voltage THD.

-- Notably, the marginal difference in Current distortion between Stereo power on and off does not seem to effect the Voltage sine wave or harmonics. Does this make it likely that the Current measurements are of no consequence and should I just focus on Voltage?

--Also, worth noting: I'm not aware of any difference in SQ between midday and 9pm. And I think the system is sounding very good! But, of course there is always the specter of More Better!

As far as power conditioning. I'm using the Torus RM20. It is connected to the front end Router/Switch, the Pre and Amp monos. The class D Sub amps are unfiltered and my Taiko Olympus Server/Dac are battery powered.

I think the Torus has an overall positive impact, but to be honest, I've never AB'd it in or out since installing. I'm pretty allergic to the A/B process.

If these measurements don't indicate anything is amiss, I'm probably good leaving everything as is. Though, after hearing the difference battery power makes to the Olympus Server/Dac, I may be tempted to entertain the thought of batter power for everything else as well.

 

[treitz3]

Agreed. I had them do that to the house I currently reside in. They recorded for about a week, looked at the results, found the issue and quickly resolved it. No issues ever since.

Tom

 

[Kingrex]

Agreed. I had them do that to the house I currently reside in. They recorded for about a week, looked at the results, found the issue and quickly resolved it. No issues ever since.

Tom

What was your issue?

 

[treitz3]

Oh, man. That was a long time ago. I remember it being one of the phases had a line underground that was somehow compromised.....but that's about all I remember. I also remember something about some of the lights in the house just acting....weird. That's what (IIRC) tipped me off to the issue. We were busy moving into the house and setting up shop at the time.

It had to have been the underground line to the house because the shop was fine from the get go (separate meter). All I remember seeing is some fresh dirt (where grass was earlier that day) about 3 or 4 feet away from the X-nsfrmr in the backyard.

Looks like Italia's post disappeared. Bummer.

Tom

 

[jasond]

You mean the Schnerzinger Grid Protector could solve such problems?

 

[tony22]

@wil, what device did you use for these measurements?

 

[Alrainbow]

There are many ways to measure the grid , best is over time with a recorder.
They are cheap now but you can rent them
You do need to measure a few things.
All phases and to neutral and greens in voltage.
Also and perhaps more important is current
This shows any phase changes and how they relate to voltage. You need over time to see a pattern. Spikes and dips will show how stable your house is .
Measurements to both neutral and ground planes is very important.
If your lines the n your home has a faulting neutral this will have a big effect on your house. Imagine your home grounding feeding back the neutral to others.
As i do home maintenance many times utility neutral fails and that home is not just balancing your home but others.
one simple way that now is measure current on your ground at panel it should be zero
If there is current then turn off your main and check. If it's still has current you have big issues
Lastly most look for measuring there line power but the devices need to be looked at
To see any effects on the dc psu output
I had amps that growled and when I measured the dc output of the amp buss it was several volts lower at same ac input. When the growl was lower it was higher on dc buss .
This shows the core was being saturated

 

[Johan K]

I had a LOT of trouble with incoming power last year. I got lots of help from my distributor, who took measurements for several weeks. They even tried a new main cable from the street and into my house. In the end we found lots of small things, leading to bigger issues. I solved most of the problems myself by replacing a bunch of stuff, and completely rebuilt the main breaker box, rearranged the fuses and such. In the end it paid off. Before I had big issues with a noisy system.. buzz and hum from almost every component. Now the whole system is very quiet and it is very enjoyable to listen. Another thing that happened was everything got much more dynamic, more powerful and calm at the same time. So good power is the key factor for a good response from the stereo system.

/ Jk

 

[wil]

I had a LOT of trouble with incoming power last year. I got lots of help from my distributor, who took measurements for several weeks. They even tried a new main cable from the street and into my house. In the end we found lots of small things, leading to bigger issues. I solved most of the problems myself by replacing a bunch of stuff, and completely rebuilt the main breaker box, rearranged the fuses and such. In the end it paid off. Before I had big issues with a noisy system.. buzz and hum from almost every component. Now the whole system is very quiet and it is very enjoyable to listen. Another thing that happened was everything got much more dynamic, more powerful and calm at the same time. So good power is the key factor for a good response from the stereo system.

/ Jk
View attachment 145872View attachment 145873View attachment 145874

Johan K, Could you explain what the the different sine waves are that we see here?
Thanks

 

[wil]

@wil, what device did you use for these measurements?

Fluke 345. I found a refurbished one at a good price. I’ve sent it back for service though as it’s Power Factor reading is malfunctioning.

 

[Johan K]

Johan K, Could you explain what the the different sine waves are that we see here?
Thanks

Hi wil,

Sure man, if you take a look at the left on the instrument, you can see the different colors and numbers, okay. So it is voltage and current for the three phases shown. Hope that helps.

/ Jk

 

[wil]

Hi wil,

Sure man, if you take a look at the left on the instrument, you can see the different colors and numbers, okay. So it is voltage and current for the three phases shown. Hope that helps.

/ Jk

Got it! And this is after the work you did, I take it?

 

[microstrip]

Hi wil,

Sure man, if you take a look at the left on the instrument, you can see the different colors and numbers, okay. So it is voltage and current for the three phases shown. Hope that helps.

/ Jk

Nice. Can I risk that the system sounds better on phase B? I looks like it has a more "linear" charge, with less switching supplies.

 

[Johan K]

Got it! And this is after the work you did, I take it?

No, this was before I rebuilt everything. Had to know the problem first.. right. So after I got everything done, I didn’t do any more measurements of that kind. That instrument was the power company’s own instrument, and you are NOT able to have that longer than necessary, I tell you… as it is ””V E R Y”” precious to them for some reason.

However… later in the summer last year, I had the privilege to be visited by an electric wizard… WOW..!! He had some spoky instruments, that’s for sure, and he did measure vagabond currents, ground plane, ground potentials, neutral plane, back flow and different frequency variations… He was some kind of a weirdo, he was so smart.. I tell you…!! Seriously funny guy, but spooky… -SERIOUSLY SPOOKY !!!

Anyway, as an old electrician myself, this was way above my knowledge when it comes to electrical stuff, but he did tell me a few secrets to improve the power flow to my system, which I did. But most importantly, he did something to my incoming power… something I can’t say, as I don’t know what he did, but obviously he did speak a magic spell of some kind, cus when he left, it was magic, and I haven’t had any problems since… -Just THAT is spooky, but very cool.

/ Jk

Here is the Wizard, have a look…

 

[Johan K]

Nice. Can I risk that the system sounds better on phase B? I looks like it has a more "linear" charge, with less switching supplies.

This was just a screenshot, and the sinus waves was live and dynamic and did change every millisecond, so no way I can answer your question correctly.

Now… I do use all three phases continuously as my system is rather big, and needs a lot of juice, so to speak.

The trick is to balance the power flow, so there is no big difference between the three phases… You want the flow to be equal to the three phases… that’s the magic !!

 

[microstrip]

This was just a screenshot, and the sinus waves was live and dynamic and did change every millisecond, so no way I can answer your question correctly.

Now… I do use all three phases continuously as my system is rather big, and needs a lot of juice, so to speak.

The trick is to balance the power flow, so there is no big difference between the three phases… You want the flow to be equal to the three phases… that’s the magic !!

Thanks - just saw that you have more than average high power devices in your system! Weighting everything, three phase is surely a good choice.

 

[Johan K]

Thanks - just saw that you have more than average high power devices in your system! Weighting everything, three phase is surely a good choice.

Thank you !

 

[DasguteOhr]

No, this was before I rebuilt everything. Had to know the problem first.. right. So after I got everything done, I didn’t do any more measurements of that kind. That instrument was the power company’s own instrument, and you are NOT able to have that longer than necessary, I tell you… as it is ””V E R Y”” precious to them for some reason.

However… later in the summer last year, I had the privilege to be visited by an electric wizard… WOW..!! He had some spoky instruments, that’s for sure, and he did measure vagabond currents, ground plane, ground potentials, neutral plane, back flow and different frequency variations… He was some kind of a weirdo, he was so smart.. I tell you…!! Seriously funny guy, but spooky… -SERIOUSLY SPOOKY !!!

Anyway, as an old electrician myself, this was way above my knowledge when it comes to electrical stuff, but he did tell me a few secrets to improve the power flow to my system, which I did. But most importantly, he did something to my incoming power… something I can’t say, as I don’t know what he did, but obviously he did speak a magic spell of some kind, cus when he left, it was magic, and I haven’t had any problems since… -Just THAT is spooky, but very cool.

/ Jk

Here is the Wizard, have a look…

View attachment 145903

Beeker is a real wizard of electric...lol great johan

 

[DasguteOhr]

I had a LOT of trouble with incoming power last year. I got lots of help from my distributor, who took measurements for several weeks. They even tried a new main cable from the street and into my house. In the end we found lots of small things, leading to bigger issues. I solved most of the problems myself by replacing a bunch of stuff, and completely rebuilt the main breaker box, rearranged the fuses and such. In the end it paid off. Before I had big issues with a noisy system.. buzz and hum from almost every component. Now the whole system is very quiet and it is very enjoyable to listen. Another thing that happened was everything got much more dynamic, more powerful and calm at the same time. So good power is the key factor for a good response from the stereo system.

/ Jk
View attachment 145872View attachment 145873View attachment 145874

Johan, have you looked at the capacitive and inductive load? With inductive loads, the current leads the voltage, such as in phase 1. This also indirectly affects the level of distortion.
Reactive power increases the load on the line, you can not send max energy through

P.s sorry
In the case of inductances, the currents will be delayed. Phase 1 capacitive load
In german" bei induktivitäten -tun ströme sich verspäten"

 

[Johan K]

Johan, have you looked at the capacitive and inductive load? With inductive loads, the current leads the voltage, such as in phase 1. This also indirectly affects the level of distortion.
Reactive power increases the load on the line, you can not send max energy through

Yes Sir, I have.
As I said earlier, the wizard that helped me, did look at everything. And remember the pic from the instrument was just a screenshot that varied constantly second to second.