Merlot DAC and Syrah Music Server

[Phelonious Ponk]

Well, let's examine one of these embedded systems and figure out if that is the case. I believe you are a fan of Bryston BDP-2, yes? If so, I searched and could not find a high-resolution picture of its inside. But there was one at reasonable size that I could analyze and annotate. Here it is:

As shown, the board on the left is the power supply and the board on the right is the computer. Below the power supply board we see a rather large toroidal transformer leading one to think this devices uses a linear power supply. Indeed we see a rectifier and a pair of regulators/transistors on the right. But smack in the middle is a Mean Well (chinese company) 5 volt switchmode power supply! Its input is mains at 120 volts so it will be whaling all out, triggering worries people have about such devices.

From the low resolution I can't quite tell whether it is there just to power the front panel or the main CPU board. But whatever it is, it is generating noise.

The output of the power supply board is that gray cable carrying power to the CPU motherboard on the right. Note the path that is taking. It goes right over that little board that produces AES/EBU and S/PDIF digital output from the machine!!! That cable is unshielded as power cables usually are so not only could it be carrying noise from the power supply, it can also pick up noise from the computer side and radiate that out onto the digital audio output.

This is pretty poor design hygiene for an audio equipment. It is what a computer designer would do that doesn't know audio. The fix would have been dead simple: a slightly longer cable travelling in the front of the CPU board.

Another miss is where it goes on the CPU board. Notice that is almost touching the aluminum silver heatsink for the CPU! I have indicated that with a second arrow. That heat will degrade that cable over time. Is it a big deal? No. But these are the things that separate great designs from working designs.

Back to power supply, we see a coil on the right on the main CPU board. That tells me that there is another switchmode power supply on the CPU motherboard generating all the other voltages that board/CPU require. I can't be quite sure without higher resolution image or access to the board but there is high likelihood this is the case. If so, then there is no notion of a "linear power supply" here. You have two switchmode supplies creating the noise that they do which gets telegraphed to that power cable and run over the digital audio output.

The main "boot drive" for Linux is a compact flash. This is a common approach in embedded systems which assumes that the drive only gets used to boot and for infrequent access by the system. It is a rather poor choice in my opinion here. This is an audio server and that storage is used to cache/store all the activities of the system. That CF file will get far more use here than it would be in a typical embedded system. That causes two issues: slower access/response from the system and eventual demise of that Flash memory due to limited write cycles.

When we build computers we use SSDs which are designed for high-performance and much higher endurance. CF cards may not apply although you could use them just the same if you really wanted to.

At high level, there is no magic here. There is a computer and power supply, running an operating system. Its hardware design is "OK" but nothing remotely like a high-end piece of audio electronics. There should be no assumption that by mere design in this manner, it can provide superior digital audio out of its digital ports.

It's a big audiophile box with a big audiophile name, Amir. Reality will not be well-received.

Tim

 

[Andre Marc]

It's a big audiophile box with a big audiophile name, Amir. Reality will not be well-received.

Tim

Taking a wild guess here Tim, you have never heard this product.

Taking more guesses, I bet you did not know they use a in house designed soundcard.

Did you know that out of 15 published reviews, 12 reviewers purchased their samples?

Did you know that YG Acoustics used it as their source several years running at Newport and other shows
over the 10x more expensive dCS unit they had? They used this with the 20x more expensive dCS DAC.

I find it rather laughable that "reality" can be extracted from internet posters engaging in armchair engineer.
Not my reality, sorry.

Just sayin'........

P.S. It is hardly a "big audiophile box". My Oppo BluRay player is bigger by 20%. It is 17 inches wide
and slim. There are bigger Mac Book Pros.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Taking a wild guess here Tim, you have never heard this product.

Taking more guesses, I bet you did not know they use a in house designed soundcard.

Did you know that out of 15 published reviews, 12 reviewers purchased their samples?

Did you know that YG Acoustics used it as their source several years running at Newport and other shows
over the 10x more expensive dCS unit they had? They used this with the 20x more expensive dCS DAC.

I find it rather laughable that "reality" can be extracted from internet posters engaging in armchair engineer.
Not my reality, sorry.

Just sayin'........

P.S. It is hardly a "big audiophile box". My Oppo BluRay player is bigger by 20%. It is 17 inches wide
and slim. There are bigger Mac Book Pros.

Nothing Amir pointed to requires listening to the product to understand. Nothing he pointed to says it sounds bad. What it says is that this dedicated streamer is a computer, and designed like one, not like a purpose-built audiophile product. And even if that house-designed sound card is a gift handed down from the gods, everything Amir said is legitimate. That's the reality that is denied here regularly. If it said "Yamaha" on the front of it and he posted exactly the same response, no one would object, much less retreat from the thread in fear of information. Yeah, I know audiophiles trust their ears; I don't. I would put audiophile high-end ears near the bottom of the list of senses I'd trust, and this kind of response to that kind of post underscores the reason why.

Tim

 

[Andre Marc]

Nothing Amir pointed to requires listening to the product to understand. Nothing he pointed to says it sounds bad. What it says is that this dedicated streamer is a computer, and designed like one, not like a purpose-built audiophile product. And even if that house-designed sound card is a gift handed down from the gods, everything Amir said is legitimate. That's the reality that is denied here regularly. If it said "Yamaha" on the front of it and he posted exactly the same response, no one would object, much less retreat from the thread in fear of information. Yeah, I know audiophiles trust their ears; I don't. I would put audiophile high-end ears near the bottom of the list of senses I'd trust, and this kind of response to that kind of post underscores the reason why.

Tim

Tim, with all due respect, that is misinformed gibberish. Sounds like a good rant, but lacks any basis in fact.

Bryston, and others have put enormous resources into firmware, parts selection, and the cleanest data path possible.
NOT to mention a full time staff dedicated staff that interfaces directly with the user base. To date, since the inception
of the product, have added; network streaming, USB audio output, DSD, Tidal, and a host of other features. This
just scratches the surface.

Again, you can post all you want without any experience, in the most impassioned way, it does not change
the fact that is from the outside with your nose pressed up against the glass.

 

[Elberoth]

Well, let's examine one of these embedded systems and figure out if that is the case. I believe you are a fan of Bryston BDP-2, yes? If so, I searched and could not find a high-resolution picture of its inside. But there was one at reasonable size that I could analyze and annotate. Here it is:

As shown, the board on the left is the power supply and the board on the right is the computer. Below the power supply board we see a rather large toroidal transformer leading one to think this devices uses a linear power supply. Indeed we see a rectifier and a pair of regulators/transistors on the right. But smack in the middle is a Mean Well (chinese company) 5 volt switchmode power supply! Its input is mains at 120 volts so it will be whaling all out, triggering worries people have about such devices.

From the low resolution I can't quite tell whether it is there just to power the front panel or the main CPU board. But whatever it is, it is generating noise.

The output of the power supply board is that gray cable carrying power to the CPU motherboard on the right. Note the path that is taking. It goes right over that little board that produces AES/EBU and S/PDIF digital output from the machine!!! That cable is unshielded as power cables usually are so not only could it be carrying noise from the power supply, it can also pick up noise from the computer side and radiate that out onto the digital audio output.

This is pretty poor design hygiene for an audio equipment. It is what a computer designer would do that doesn't know audio. The fix would have been dead simple: a slightly longer cable travelling in the front of the CPU board.

Another miss is where it goes on the CPU board. Notice that is almost touching the aluminum silver heatsink for the CPU! I have indicated that with a second arrow. That heat will degrade that cable over time. Is it a big deal? No. But these are the things that separate great designs from working designs.

Back to power supply, we see a coil on the right on the main CPU board. That tells me that there is another switchmode power supply on the CPU motherboard generating all the other voltages that board/CPU require. I can't be quite sure without higher resolution image or access to the board but there is high likelihood this is the case. If so, then there is no notion of a "linear power supply" here. You have two switchmode supplies creating the noise that they do which gets telegraphed to that power cable and run over the digital audio output.

The main "boot drive" for Linux is a compact flash. This is a common approach in embedded systems which assumes that the drive only gets used to boot and for infrequent access by the system. It is a rather poor choice in my opinion here. This is an audio server and that storage is used to cache/store all the activities of the system. That CF file will get far more use here than it would be in a typical embedded system. That causes two issues: slower access/response from the system and eventual demise of that Flash memory due to limited write cycles.

When we build computers we use SSDs which are designed for high-performance and much higher endurance. CF cards may not apply although you could use them just the same if you really wanted to.

At high level, there is no magic here. There is a computer and power supply, running an operating system. Its hardware design is "OK" but nothing remotely like a high-end piece of audio electronics. There should be no assumption that by mere design in this manner, it can provide superior digital audio out of its digital ports.

An interesting post. I would like to make a few corrections.

1. The smaller SMPS powers the display, not the MoBo. I have to admit, I do not understand either why Bryston decided to use one, even if it powers just the display (other than for cost reasons).

2. The linear PSU powers the mother board.

3. The power cable that goes over the sound card does not carry the power from SMPS.

4. The coil you see on the right is a DC to DC converter. Every single MoBo has a bunch of them. No way to get around this problem, unless you design your own MoBo, with linear voltage regulators (highly unlikely).

5. The CF as a main boot drive is actually a good choice. CF cards generate less noise than SSD drives, and are prefered by most hardcore computer audio fans to SSD drives. They are slower than SSD drives and have limited lifespan (although I doubt that it be a problem in real life). That beeing said - I suspect Bryston had chosen the CF card over the SSD drive for costs reasons, not SQ advantage they give.

6. The Samsung SSD you see on this pic is not part of the design. This is DIY a add on.

BTW - the SPDIF signal is generated by a generic ESI Juli@ sound card:

http://www.esi-audio.com/products/julia/

The only part that Bryston added is the small, green PCB that houses AES and SPDIF connectors plus two small digital transformers (one for AES and one for RCA out).

 

[Andre Marc]

An interesting post. I would like to make a few corrections.

1. The smaller SMPS powers the display, not the MoBo. I have to admit, I do not understand either why Bryston decided to use one, even if it powers just the display (other than for cost reasons).

2. The linear PSU powers the mother board.

3. The power cable that goes over the sound card does not carry the power from SMPS.

4. The coil you see on the right is a DC to DC converter. Every single MoBo has a bunch of them. No way to get around this problem, unless you design your own MoBo, with linear voltage regulators (highly unlikely).

5. The CF as a main boot drive is actually a good choice. CF cards generate less noise than SSD drives, and are prefered by most hardcore computer audio fans to SSD drives. They are slower than SSD drives and have limited lifespan (although I doubt that it be a problem in real life). That beeing said - I suspect Bryston had chosen the CF card over the SSD drive for costs reasons, not SQ advantage they give.

6. The Samsung SSD you see on this pic is not part of the design. This is DIY a add on.

BTW - the SPDIF signal is generated by a generic ESI Juli@ sound card:

http://www.esi-audio.com/products/julia/

The only part that Bryston added is the small, green PCB that houses AES and SPDIF connectors plus two small digital transformers (one for AES and one for RCA out).

View attachment 24294

And let me also make one correction. Bryston as of 6 months ago, no longer uses the ESI Juli@ soundcard, substituting
an in house designed unit.

This is the danger of the armchair engineers annotating photos, like in the post you responded to, they are more than likely outdated and inaccurate.

Peterborough, Ontario May 28, 2015 — Bryston has announced the introduction of a proprietary Integrated Audio Device (IAD) for the BDP-2 Music Player. The new IAD delivers improved specifications and replaces the current two-piece third-party sound card and SPDIF interface module (AES/BNC) utilized in the BDP-2. All new BDP-2 players are currently shipping with the new IAD installed, and legacy BDP-2 consumers have an option to retrofit to the new device for an MSRP of $500. IAD upgrades will be managed at the Bryston factory until dealers and international distributors have been trained to properly install the new module.

“There were several important factors that led us to develop the IAD,” reported Bryston VP James Tanner. “We were confident that by eliminating three connection points, hand selecting and testing all of the components and shifting to our meticulous in-house manufacturing that we could improve transient capability while enhancing low resolution detail,” Tanner added. The Bryston IAD is also directly powered by the BDP-2’s premium quality linear power supply rather than by a power source shared with the motherboard.

Another significant benefit of the Bryston IAD has been the capacity to free BDP-2 production from the constraints of third-party supplied devices. Premium quality sound cards are challenging to source, and the IAD alleviates these supply chain concerns completely. The IAD will reduce backorders on the BDP-2, which has been an issue as sales have outpaced manufacturing since the introduction of the hand-assembled Bryston music players. Added Tanner, “At this level of quality we recognize that the IAD represents a relatively moderate advance in performance—however the manufacturing quality and consistency along with the sonic benefits make the IAD a clear winner for our customers.”

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, with all due respect, that is misinformed gibberish. Sounds like a good rant, but lacks any basis in fact.

Bryston, and others have put enormous resources into firmware, parts selection, and the cleanest data path possible.
NOT to mention a full time staff dedicated staff that interfaces directly with the user base. To date, since the inception
of the product, have added; network streaming, USB audio output, DSD, Tidal, and a host of other features. This
just scratches the surface.

Again, you can post all you want without any experience, in the most impassioned way, it does not change
the fact that is from the outside with your nose pressed up against the glass.

And none of that has anything to do with what Amir pointed out in his post. I assure you, my nose is not pressed against that glass. In a hobby full of inaudible improvements and wishful thinking, the dedicated server is perhaps the emptiest promise of them all. It solves no audible problems that can't be addressed for less then the cost of a high-end faceplate.

Tim

 

[Bruce B]

Why the hell are we talking about a Bryston product in a Playback Designs Sub Forum/Thread??

 

[Blizzard]

And let me also make one correction. Bryston as of 6 months ago, no longer uses the ESI Juli@ soundcard, substituting
an in house designed unit.

This is the danger of the armchair engineers annotating photos, like in the post you responded to, they are more than likely outdated and inaccurate.

Peterborough, Ontario May 28, 2015 — Bryston has announced the introduction of a proprietary Integrated Audio Device (IAD) for the BDP-2 Music Player. The new IAD delivers improved specifications and replaces the current two-piece third-party sound card and SPDIF interface module (AES/BNC) utilized in the BDP-2. All new BDP-2 players are currently shipping with the new IAD installed, and legacy BDP-2 consumers have an option to retrofit to the new device for an MSRP of $500. IAD upgrades will be managed at the Bryston factory until dealers and international distributors have been trained to properly install the new module.

“There were several important factors that led us to develop the IAD,” reported Bryston VP James Tanner. “We were confident that by eliminating three connection points, hand selecting and testing all of the components and shifting to our meticulous in-house manufacturing that we could improve transient capability while enhancing low resolution detail,” Tanner added. The Bryston IAD is also directly powered by the BDP-2’s premium quality linear power supply rather than by a power source shared with the motherboard.

Another significant benefit of the Bryston IAD has been the capacity to free BDP-2 production from the constraints of third-party supplied devices. Premium quality sound cards are challenging to source, and the IAD alleviates these supply chain concerns completely. The IAD will reduce backorders on the BDP-2, which has been an issue as sales have outpaced manufacturing since the introduction of the hand-assembled Bryston music players. Added Tanner, “At this level of quality we recognize that the IAD represents a relatively moderate advance in performance—however the manufacturing quality and consistency along with the sonic benefits make the IAD a clear winner for our customers.”

If someone was to use this for DSD and use the USB output like 95% do, why would the quality of the soundcard and SPDIF board matter anyways? And what if you want of take advantage of SOTA resampling/modulation engines like HQplayer, so you can get the best sound out of your Dac?

I'd say there's A much better choice with higher quality parts available on this thread for much cheaper.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19221-Streamer-to-kill-the-big-boys-for-under-250

 

[Elberoth]

If someone was to use this for DSD and use the USB output like 95% do, why would the quality of the soundcard and SPDIF board matter anyways? And what if you want of take advantage of SOTA resampling/modulation engines like HQplayer, so you can get the best sound out of your Dac?

I'd say there's A much better choice with higher quality parts available on this thread for much cheaper.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19221-Streamer-to-kill-the-big-boys-for-under-250

Bryston works like an appliance. PC based music server does not. PC server requires a certain level of IT knowledge and constant tweeking. It can be (and usually is) a source of constant aggravation.

Do not fool yourself that it is any different. Been there, done that.

Servers like Bryston or Aurender are for people who just want sth that works.

 

[Blizzard]

Bryston works like an appliance. PC based music server does not. PC server requires a certain level of IT knowledge and constant tweeking. It can be (and usually is) a source of constant aggravation.

Do not fool yourself that it is any different. Been there, done that.

Servers like Bryston or Aurender are for people who just want sth that works.

Something that just works like my streamer. Turn it on and it just works. Once setup works like a black box appliance. No keyboards, monitor its or mice plugged in. Server in a office, or on a shelf, streamer by the DAC. Never have to touch any settings but the Mobile GUI to operate it.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Bryston works like an appliance. PC based music server does not. PC server requires a certain level of IT knowledge and constant tweeking. It can be (and usually is) a source of constant aggravation.

Do not fool yourself that it is any different. Been there, done that.

Servers like Bryston or Aurender are for people who just want sth that works.

I've been running all my music from a drive attached to a Mac for years. Can't remember the last time I had to do anything to it but hit "back up now." No IT knowledge required, no tweaking. Not sure what you're dealing with, but I'd guess it is audiophile nervosa-related complication.

Tim

 

[Elberoth]

I've been running all my music from a drive attached to a Mac for years. Can't remember the last time I had to do anything to it but hit "back up now." No IT knowledge required, no tweaking. Not sure what you're dealing with, but I'd guess it is audiophile nervosa-related complication.

Tim

PCs, and Macs = two different things.

 

[Elberoth]

Something that just works like my streamer. Turn it on and it just works. Once setup works like a black box appliance. No keyboards, monitor its or mice plugged in. Server in a office, or on a shelf, streamer by the DAC. Never have to touch any settings but the Mobile GUI to operate it.

Yes, you can ... but then Jriver suddenly stops responding for no reason, your mapped drived doesn't show up for no reason, a windows pop up comes in which makes your PC unresponsive (unless you close it) etc. You have to connect a monitor, keybord to fix it. And let's not even even start talking about drivers issues, HQ Player issues, AO issues etc.

I've been playing with computer audio for 5+ years. In fact - I have sold my transport a few years back and now PC server is my only source.

You can fool yourself, you can fool other people who have zero experience with computer audio, but you will not fool me. Sorry.

 

[Blizzard]

Yes, you can ... but then Jriver suddenly stops responding for no reason, your mapped drived doesn't show up for no reason, a windows pop up comes in which makes your PC unresponsive (unless you close it) etc. You have to connect a monitor, keybord to fix it. And let's not even even start talking about drivers issues, HQ Player issues, AO issues etc.

I've been playing with computer audio for 5+ years. In fact - I have sold my transport a few years back and now PC server is my only source.

You can fool yourself, you can fool other people who have zero experience with computer audio, but you will not fool me. Sorry.

Sounds like you need to upgrade that Lampi Komputer to something more stable. Like a server/streamer combo running command line Audiolinux.

 

[Elberoth]

Sounds like you need to upgrade that Lampi Komputer to something more stable. Like a server/streamer combo running command line Audiolinux.

Been there, done that, thank you.

Running command line audiolinux is all geek territory, definately NOT something an avg. Aurender or Bryston buyer we are discussing here is looking for.

 

[Blizzard]

Been there, done that, thank you.

Running command line audiolinux is all geek territory, definately NOT something an avg. Aurender or Bryston buyer we are discussing here is looking for.

You mean the average guy can't turn on the power button? everything is pre-configured just like the Bryston and Aurender units. What do you think they are running inside of them? Do you really think the computers inside them need to be in a fancy aluminum box to function? I bet if you pulled the motherboard and power supply out of the Bryston, and put them in a cardboard box, they would still function the same. They are just general purpose SBC's in a fancy box running Linux, with upgraded power supplies.

 

[amirm]

An interesting post. I would like to make a few corrections.

1. The smaller SMPS powers the display, not the MoBo. I have to admit, I do not understand either why Bryston decided to use one, even if it powers just the display (other than for cost reasons).

If they are going to use it, I would prefer to have it be co-located with the display, not right next to the linear power supply and close proximity to digital audio output card.

2. The linear PSU powers the mother board.

3. The power cable that goes over the sound card does not carry the power from SMPS.

That makes sense. I still insist it is not good design as that wire will pick up noise from both the computer side and that switchmode side. It is a low-impedance path so probably not a big deal. But in high-end audio, everything is considered big deal . I would have put the linear power supply board next to the CPU and not run that long cable over anything.

4. The coil you see on the right is a DC to DC converter. Every single MoBo has a bunch of them. No way to get around this problem, unless you design your own MoBo, with linear voltage regulators (highly unlikely).

There is the crux of the issue. If I buy a high-end amplifier, I don't see them using an IC amp. I see a full custom discrete amplifier design. Here though, this is an off-the-shelf computer with a linear power supply put in the same box, a noisy front panel and switchmode supply added to it. Nothing in this regard looks like a high-end offering from Bryston. It is a packaged solution of otherwise ordinary design.

5. The CF as a main boot drive is actually a good choice. CF cards generate less noise than SSD drives, and are prefered by most hardcore computer audio fans to SSD drives. They are slower than SSD drives and have limited lifespan (although I doubt that it be a problem in real life). That beeing said - I suspect Bryston had chosen the CF card over the SSD drive for costs reasons, not SQ advantage they give.

As I explained CF cards can be good in typical embedded solutions. Here though, this is an active music server and that CF card will get banged on much harder. I hold concerns over its long term reliability but it is not a major issue.

Anyway, the point remains. To someone who recognizes the parts inside such devices, it is an ordinary build that any digital designer could put together. It is not anything audiophile or special.

Would be interesting to see if SYRAH music server from PB Designs is anything different.

 

[amirm]

Yes, you can ... but then Jriver suddenly stops responding for no reason, your mapped drived doesn't show up for no reason, a windows pop up comes in which makes your PC unresponsive (unless you close it) etc. You have to connect a monitor, keybord to fix it. And let's not even even start talking about drivers issues, HQ Player issues, AO issues etc.

I've been playing with computer audio for 5+ years. In fact - I have sold my transport a few years back and now PC server is my only source.

You can fool yourself, you can fool other people who have zero experience with computer audio, but you will not fool me. Sorry.

I have had a new Windows server build that has been running for two months straight with Roon that starts with the OS. Zero problems. Put in Jriver, and a bunch of other software on it, then good luck to you . Keep it clean and mean with reliable software focused on just one thing, and it will keep going.

BTW, these embedded boxes have their own issues just the same. Like yours, my NAS decides once in a while to act up. I am very tempted to put it out of its misery and put my library on SSDs inside my server. The have piled on so much software in there on top of Linux and it is not remotely like an appliance. The thing takes minutes to boot by the way. My windows 10 server with roon is up in less than 10 seconds.

 

[Andre Marc]

If they are going to use it, I would prefer to have it be co-located with the display, not right next to the linear power supply and close proximity to digital audio output card.


That makes sense. I still insist it is not good design as that wire will pick up noise from both the computer side and that switchmode side. It is a low-impedance path so probably not a big deal. But in high-end audio, everything is considered big deal . I would have put the linear power supply board next to the CPU and not run that long cable over anything.


There is the crux of the issue. If I buy a high-end amplifier, I don't see them using an IC amp. I see a full custom discrete amplifier design. Here though, this is an off-the-shelf computer with a linear power supply put in the same box, a noisy front panel and switchmode supply added to it. Nothing in this regard looks like a high-end offering from Bryston. It is a packaged solution of otherwise ordinary design.


As I explained CF cards can be good in typical embedded solutions. Here though, this is an active music server and that CF card will get banged on much harder. I hold concerns over its long term reliability but it is not a major issue.

Anyway, the point remains. To someone who recognizes the parts inside such devices, it is an ordinary build that any digital designer could put together. It is not anything audiophile or special.

Would be interesting to see if SYRAH music server from PB Designs is anything different.

You got schooled and you are trying yet again to slice and dice and create your own reality.."ordinary computer in a box"...

Yet, again, you have not heard it, and have no plans to, eh?