Michael Fremer on Audio

[amirm]

Guys, please keep the language and tone friendly and professional.

 

[Mikey]

Precisely! I am flattered by all of the attention but really saddened that some people have no sense of humor....

 

[Mikey]

how many can you count and name Terry? -Mikey.

 

[Mikey]

When you're given limited time you make the most of it. No Red Bull was involved.

 

[puroagave]

Precisely! I am flattered by all of the attention but really saddened that some people have no sense of humor....

tongue in cheek and all... its good stuff, i get it.:b i love yout bit about German vs. English vs american record sleeves - classic!

 

[Gregadd]

I confess Mikey. Sometimes I use you as gas to throw on the fire of debate.

 

[Steve Williams]

Welcome Mike

we really are a good bunch of guys here and we look forward to your future contributions. Occasionally one will get out of the sandbox and play rough

 

[Andre Marc]

When you're given limited time you make the most of it. No Red Bull was involved.

Hi Michael:

Don't cha love it?

I for one, enjoy the videos and the various Podcasts.

 

[Andre Marc]

Welcome Mike

we really are a good bunch of guys here and we look forward to your future contributions. Occasionally one will get out of the sandbox and play rough

Steve, and all. I wrote two pieces for Mikey's site and he is a gentleman, and wonderful to work with. If he continues to occasionally drop in and contribute
we will all be better off for it. He has 20 years on me but twice the energy!

 

[NorthStar]

Precisely! I am flattered by all of the attention but really saddened that some people have no sense of humor....

-----Are you truly Mr. Michael Fremer?

Because if you are it is an honor to welcome you here in our small but very bright community. :b

My name is Bob (Robert in French) and I've been reading you since you very first started writing and reviewing.
And I mean that, from several audio mags (Stereophile being the most prominent, and then its derivatives; Home Theater, etc.), and I feel like I know you for many many years. ...I know your sense of humor (I enjoy it too), and I know your expertise on all things 'turntabling'. But you also enjoy high-end digital sources, precise loudspeakers' reproduction, pure amplification, impeccable preamplification (phono preamplification included of course), and just about everything that is accurate and precisely tuned-in on everything auditive, visual, touch (including skin), taste (food & wine), and smell (new electronics and women). :b ...Plus you love 'words', and your vocabulary is extended and to the point, often.

Mikey, Welcome! -

Bob

P.S. I am positively certain that Terry didn't mean any arm at all; just one slip of a very innocent word.
Please, don't sweat it.

 

[Gregadd]

Steve, and all. I wrote two pieces for Mikey's site and he is a gentleman, and wonderful to work with. If he continues to occasionally drop in and contribute
we will all be better off for it. He has 20 years on me but twice the energy!

Could you give us a link?

 

[Gregadd]

"Does vinyl have the equivalent of MP3?" "Does vinyl have something called lossy vs lossless?"

Vinyl IS the equivalent of MP3. Vinyl is inherently a lossy system.

Soindminded

 

[NorthStar]

---Hey Greg, you have a new avatar; no turntable? :b

 

[Gregadd]

---Hey Greg, you have a new avatar; no turntable? :b

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?6409-Comments-from-new-members

 

[Andre Marc]

Could you give us a link?

sure:

The photos are mine too.

Michael was kind enough to arrange the interview with Doug Sax for me,
and I got a hold of Shelby Lynne.
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/just-little-lovin-finally-gets-some-0

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/dengue-fever-fells-our-man-socal-0

 

[terryj]

how many can you count and name Terry? -Mikey.

the entire guff up to about 0.30, the crap about blind testing and (if it were for food) we'd blindfold you and close off your nose and apply what looked to be 'massive claws' of some description in the mouth area.

You know, bullshit like that. I GET that you were playing to your faithful audience, no not on you tube but the ones seated at your knees so I give you a bit of leeway there.

The rest, most here already agree they have had the same experience.

From later posts it seems there are more vids, well I am only talking about the one that started the thread.

 

[Soundminded]

Soindminded

Perhaps I'm having difficulty communicating, there seems to be a rash of people misunderstanding what I say. I'll stick with my original statement: "Vinyl IS the equivalent of MP3. Vinyl is inherently a lossy system." As mp3 does not have the technical capabilities of wav which is at least in theory adequate for recording all music to the limits of resolution and range of human hearing in both frequency and amplitude, vinyl does not have the technical capabilities of the master analog tape from which it was made. BTW the master tape recorder does not have adequate capabilities for recording all music without a lot of help, not just massive equalization but Dolby A and in extreme cases peak limiting. So vinyl is a loss from the master tape signal just as mp3 is a loss from the wav file. There are lossless recordings on vinyl and those are direct to disc but they are not only few and far between, they still have all of the same technical limitations inherent in vinyl.

Here's a question, could you burn a cd that is audibly indistinguishable from any vinyl played on any phonograph with consumer grade CD equipment? How about with laboratory grade CD equipment? My hunch is that with consumer grade equipment you could come awfully close, in lab conditions it could be made indistinguishable with RBCD techology. Can you do the reverse, make a vinyl that is indistinguishable from any arbitrary CD? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Perhaps I'm having difficulty communicating, there seems to be a rash of people misunderstanding what I say. I'll stick with my original statement: "Vinyl IS the equivalent of MP3. Vinyl is inherently a lossy system." As mp3 does not have the technical capabilities of wav which is at least in theory adequate for recording all music to the limits of resolution and range of human hearing in both frequency and amplitude, vinyl does not have the technical capabilities of the master analog tape from which it was made. BTW the master tape recorder does not have adequate capabilities for recording all music without a lot of help, not just massive equalization but Dolby A and in extreme cases peak limiting. So vinyl is a loss from the master tape signal just as mp3 is a loss from the wav file. There are lossless recordings on vinyl and those are direct to disc but they are not only few and far between, they still have all of the same technical limitations inherent in vinyl.

Here's a question, could you burn a cd that is audibly indistinguishable from any vinyl played on any phonograph with consumer grade CD equipment? How about with laboratory grade CD equipment? My hunch is that with consumer grade equipment you could come awfully close, in lab conditions it could be made indistinguishable with RBCD techology. Can you do the reverse, make a vinyl that is indistinguishable from any arbitrary CD? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

I am curious. Have you ever compared a master tape--much less a second generation 15 ips tape-- to the corresponding LP? Or is this all conjecture? Second what tables have you listened to?

Because I will tell you this--and I think MikeL has said as much after he took receipt of his NVS/Telos/Anna combo--that LPs played back on the best of today's tables equipped with the best of today's arm sporting the best of today's cartridges are remarkably close to a master or even 2nd gen. 15 ips tape. Yes the tape is better in many little ways but the LP is clearly not embarrassed. People who try to make correlations and infer cause-effct often run into the "just because you were born in a garage doesn't make you a car effect." And in this instance, I think maybe we can infer that the issue perhaps isn't the analog medium but the playback of this medium.

And the answer to your last question is no. If a high rez copy of a master tape doesn't equal the master tape, how do you expect this in the case of an LP? Second, what turntables have you used in your investigations? And what you are saying flies in the fact of the fact that companies like RR are releasing their analog recording converted to digital and then back to vinyl.

 

[Andre Marc]

I am curious. Have you ever compared the master tape to the LP made from it or is this all conjecture?

Because I will tell you this--and I think MikeL has said as much after he took receipt of his NVS/Telos/Anna combo--that LPs played back on the best of today's tables equipped with the best of today's arm sporting the best of today's cartridges are remarkably close to a master or even 2nd gen. 15 ips tape. Yes the tape is better in many little ways but the LP is clearly not embarrassed.

And the answer to your last question is no. If a high rez copy of a master tape doesn't equal the master tape, how do you expect this in the case of an LP?

I can tell you that Bob Ludwig, who has heard literally 10,000 master tapes said that in extensive testing he did with a panel, LP came in dead last when compared.

DSD was first, High bit depth/sample rate PCM was second, and a tape dub was third.

"Now, a great converter takes as much care with the analog circuitry as the digital. With high resolution digital, it is almost impossible to pick out the original from the copy, while with vinyl, one can ALWAYS pick out the original vs the vinyl playback!"

 

[MylesBAstor]

I can tell you that Bob Ludwig, who has heard literally 10,000 master tapes said that in extensive testing he did with a panel, LP came in dead last when compared.

DSD was first, High bit depth/sample rate PCM was second, and a tape dub was third.

"Now, a great converter takes as much care with the analog circuitry as the digital. With high resolution digital, it is almost impossible to pick out the original from the copy, while with vinyl, one can ALWAYS pick out the original vs the vinyl playback!"

I'm sorry but I don't put much stock in these "listening panel" reports seriously. And I can give you just as many other recording engineers who found the opposite result.

Nor do my listening experiences agree.