Michael Fremer's home power-system story

andromedaaudio

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I have read his enthusiastic posts on the subject in several threads, he kindly addressed my questions on it. Many people I respect, including David, have reported on how his system sounds in WBF.
Yes but steve s system isnt that power hungry to start with
With his easy to drive speakers low powered tube amps .
Those XVX s ( i think )M fremer has need the juice other wise they will sound depleted / strained .
 

PeterA

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I have read his enthusiastic posts on the subject in several threads, he kindly addressed my questions on it. Many people I respect, including David, have reported on how his system sounds in WBF.

I recall the initial reports from Steve. Since then the talk has been about footers and cables. If solar power delivery creates “great success“ in terms of sound quality, I imagine we will be reading of other cases reporting the same in WBF. I think I read about one other system when Steve was doing his but I have not read of any since then. It would be interesting to know if Ron ever considered such an installation in his California house.
 

ddk

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Your opinion, many we know about in audiophile circles will disagree on it.
That’s your opinion you should ask people in my audiophile circles :)!
Even our member Steve Williams uses solar energy in his Lamm ML3 and LL1 system with great success - solar electricity is just a regenerator converting DC to AC. Renewable electricity injects electricity coming from regenerators in the mains - and there is a good probably that our neighbors have cheap noisy inverters! As we are moving to a inverter based grid system should we expect that soon people will find that their systems sound poor in sunny days and in California? :)

Saying something loud and using metaphors does not make it a fact.
You can’t change facts by attacking the messenger either.
I am fortunate to live less than 100 meters away from a substation, I do not need a power regenerator. But when I owned a PsAudio P10 I did not find any coloration associated to it.

The influence of mains "quality" in stereo sound quality was never systematically studied and openly debated with proper data. At best we share experiences, nothing else.
Easy to hear the coloration of small regenerators, transformers, or any audiophile mains related box one can put in their room, wether one likes the effect or not is a personal preference, nothing to argue there.

Industrial inverters are different from audiophile boxes and in Steve’s case there’s no way to do before and after comparison.

Don’t know what you mean by systematically studied, there are plenty of companies making mains related products for audio, video, manufacturing, hospitals, etc. so something has been done.

Isn't this just part of the audiophile journey. I mean we are always looking for the next step to bring us closer to our nirvana. For most that is buying a new pair of speakers, or that new power amp, or new cables. I bet many audiophiles never get round to optimising the mains. If you live in an apartment you may not have many options, and there is always the question of how far you go - do you get the power company to upgrade the transformer, do you install 3 phase power, maybe start your own power company :) .

I suspect that we all don't realise some of the things that are holding us back until we have fixed them.
I really try hard to relieve many of my customers from this journey which depending on where one lives can be hellish. I believe that getting basic mains setup right is cornerstone of good sound and long term satisfaction for a system owner. In this case we’re criticizing an industry member with many years of experience and access who should know better and not just an audiophile.

One can go as far as they want but I’m really talking about the basics.

david
 
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Mike Lavigne

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Yes but steve s system isnt that power hungry to start with
With his easy to drive speakers low powered tube amps .
Those XVX s ( i think )M fremer has need the juice other wise they will sound depleted / strained .
i'm a believer that the A/C power grid matters; but 'need the juice' is still not much.......

Fremer's amps (same as mine) are not power hungry. his Wilson's are not quite as easy a load as my speakers, but nothing excessive. if my amps stay around 0-5 watts on my read-out with peaks in the teens and twenties, maybe Fremer's double that (smaller room than mine)? and Fremer's amps will have an easier time than Steve's. i had both (dart's and Lamm's) amps in my system at the same time and the Lamm's logically worked much harder for any similar result (minimal output from my amps).

and Steve's 6 tubed Lamm chassis will draw much more juice than Fremer's battery powered dart pre and ss dart mono blocks.
 
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microstrip

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I recall the initial reports from Steve. Since then the talk has been about footers and cables. If solar power delivery creates “great success“ in terms of sound quality, I imagine we will be reading of other cases reporting the same in WBF. I think I read about one other system when Steve was doing his but I have not read of any since then. It would be interesting to know if Ron ever considered such an installation in his California house.
You imagine a lot , I reported facts. What is the point of bringing Ron intentions to this thread?
 

microstrip

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Yes but steve s system isnt that power hungry to start with
With his easy to drive speakers low powered tube amps .
Those XVX s ( i think )M fremer has need the juice other wise they will sound depleted / strained .

The PSAudio PP20 can supply 2000 VA continuous, 3600 peak. Do you think he needs more?
 

andromedaaudio

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his Wilson's are not quite as easy a load as my speakers,
That could very well be , but i have not read a third party measurement yet from the MM 7 .
Nominal impedance doesnt tell you much
If you have the impedance graph ( min impedance) and the efficiency measured by a third party , one could have a more conclusive idea of the load it presents
 

PeterA

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I really try hard to relieve many of my customers from this journey which depending on where one lives can be hellish. I believe that getting basic mains setup right is cornerstone of good sound and long term satisfaction for a system owner. In this case we’re criticizing an industry member with many years of experience and access who should know better and not just an audiophile.

One can go as far as they want but I’m really talking about the basics.

david

I’m one of David’s clients, and he advised me on my power delivery. Yes he is talking about the basics. I replaced my JPS labs in wall wiring with 10 gauge industrial wires from dedicated circuits with new breakers. They go into industrial grade isolated ground Hubble receptacles. And then use six 8’ Ching Cheng power cords to the gear.

The noise at the speakers when the system is turned on to normal listening volume is lower now with my tube electronics and 105 dB horns then it was with my solid-state mono blocks and 90 dB conventional speakers.

This is a none fancy and very basic, inexpensive solution. And it sounds great.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I also replaced my Furutech IEC connectors that went directly from the in wall wiring to the backs of my amplifiers with the Hubble industrial receptacles. I was quite surprised that the basic outlets sounded much better that the famcy and expensive audiophile connectors.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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That could very well be , but i have not read a third party measurement yet from the MM7 .
and you never will.

OTOH having listened to my MM7's with the 100 watt dart 108's plenty of times (first version) it's (MM7's) an easy load. never even engaged the front 'eyes' which flash at approaching 'clipping'. they don't stress amps.
 

PeterA

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You imagine a lot , I reported facts. What is the point of bringing Ron intentions to this thread?

I thought that was obvious. He’s renovating a house he lives in Southern California and he has a very significant set of components going into a new dedicated listening room. Yes you claim to report facts, but you have not heard Steve’s system and yet you claim the solar power delivery is a great success.
 

microstrip

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That’s your opinion you should ask people in my audiophile circles :)!

I was addressing mainly a few friends , some distributors and the large overall community of WBF in general.

You can’t change facts by attacking the messenger either.
??? o_O o_O o_O
Easy to hear the coloration of small regenerators, transformers, or any audiophile mains related box one can put in their room, wether one likes the effect or not is a personal preference, nothing to argue there.

Who was addressing small regenerators?

Industrial inverters are different from audiophile boxes and in Steve’s case there’s no way to do before and after comparison.

Why are solar inverters different from audiophile regenerators? I think Steve can at any moment switch between solar and grid - and at night there is no solar!

Don’t know what you mean by systematically studied, there are plenty of companies making mains related products for audio, video, manufacturing, hospitals, etc. so something has been done.

Every company has a different approach, some more objective, others more magic. As long as there are no open reports on objective and subjective findings and debate they are just rumors ...
 

microstrip

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I thought that was obvious. He’s renovating a house he lives in Southern California and he has a very significant set of components going into a new dedicated listening room. Yes you claim to report facts, but you have not heard Steve’s system and yet you claim the solar power delivery is a great success.
My reference to California was a joke - as far as I know more than 50% of its electricity is supplied by horrible solid state regenerators with a lot a feedback, not by the classical electro mechanical generators with large inertia.

No I claimed Steve said it was a success, a fact. Just one data point. Probably you do not remember the many threads on the subject, Steve has been talking about solar as soon as 2014, we had many threads on it with many posters. I found that this data point was relevant as he owns and distributes Lamm products and is a frequent poster.

Times are changing fast. We can get vintage speakers and wires, but not vintage electricity. :)
 
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adyc

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i'm a believer that the A/C power grid matters; but 'need the juice' is still not much.......

Fremer's amps (same as mine) are not power hungry. his Wilson's are not quite as easy a load as my speakers, but nothing excessive. if my amps stay around 0-5 watts on my read-out with peaks in the teens and twenties, maybe Fremer's double that (smaller room than mine)? and Fremer's amps will have an easier time than Steve's. i had both (dart's and Lamm's) amps in my system at the same time and the Lamm's logically worked much harder for any similar result (minimal output from my amps).

and Steve's 6 tubed Lamm chassis will draw much more juice than Fremer's battery powered dart pre and ss dart mono blocks.
The problem is not what Fremer’s system needs a lot of juices or not. His electricity was full of distortions and electrical connections are all corroded. Even 1W horn system benefits from clean AC.
 
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adyc

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The PSAudio PP20 can supply 2000 VA continuous, 3600 peak. Do you think he needs more?
You seems that you like PS power regenerator a lot. But a lot of people can’t get away from P20 fast enough. One WBF member who is crazy about power supply have bought PS20 twice. And he sold them soon after. So PS20 is not penicillin to every electrical power problems.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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The problem is not what Fremer’s system needs a lot of juices or not. His electricity was full of distortions and electrical connections are all corroded.
with the regenerators/conditioners it's cleaning that up to a large degree. read his columns and reviews lately regarding that. no dispute it's compromised to some degree. and we can argue the degree of relevance.

i did not bring up the 'needs a lot of juices'....only responded to it.

the closest we will get to resolving this question is if Fremer publishes before and after digital samples. even that won't change minds but it will allow for a better feel for it if we care to listen.
Even 1W horn system benefits from clean AC.
a 1W Horn system will be especially sensitive to A/C noise.
 
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PeterA

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a 1W Horn system will be especially sensitive to A/C noise.

I agree Mike. I have one of these 1W horn systems. I have no desire for any of these boxes between my outlets and my equipment.
 

MRJAZZ

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You seems that you like PS power regenerator a lot. But a lot of people can’t get away from P20 fast enough. One WBF member who is crazy about power supply have bought PS20 twice. And he sold them soon after. So PS20 is not penicillin to every electrical power problems.
These things ( Power Regenerators) are extremely “ System Sensitive “. If your “mains” are relatively clean, there are probably better ways to deliver your AC. In my system they work very well, ( P10, P20), and there are several WBF members who also have them in their systems and they do find they are beneficial. I believe one gentleman in Europe that Ron ( WBF member and joint owner of WBF) has visited on several occasions, has a P20. This system is apparently spectacular, so the P20 seems to work well in that system. There’s another gentleman in Hong Kong running a TechDAS ZERO table, and other commensurate components with a P20, to good effect. As they say your YMMV....
Cheers.....
 
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DasguteOhr

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For signal sources, Phonopre, DACs and Preamp you can use two car batteries 60- 100Ah and a sine wave inverter from an ambulance,
at the output they work with high-precision 50Hz or 60Hz sine waves what you need in your country.
Mains voltage is required for poweramps , there is no getting around it.
if the input signal arrives at the poweramp without mains interference, it is as good as won.
What you need is in the Link with intelligent charge control/circut breaker ,this is my next project, I heard from 2 people that this is a big step forward in terms of sound.
Exsample
 

andromedaaudio

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The problem is not what Fremer’s system needs a lot of juices or not. His electricity was full of distortions and electrical connections are all corroded. Even 1W horn system benefits from clean AC.
i was merely replying to the fact steve is able to use solar power versus grid power.
Im not sure a high demanding speaker like a xvx could be driven by solar, but its another discussion
 
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tima

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I really try hard to relieve many of my customers from this journey which depending on where one lives can be hellish. I believe that getting basic mains setup right is cornerstone of good sound and long term satisfaction for a system owner.

David does look after his customers. Ya gotta love a proactive dealer!
 

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