Michael Fremer's home power-system story

Solypsa

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Power mains is not rocket science or magic. But audiophiles are a special community -
There are grounding and power consultants that deal with large complex environments ( server farms, hospitals etc. ) . This is way outside residential electrician stuff if not 'rocket science'. Applying these practices to a high end system can only help...
 

jeffrey_t

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Absolutely .

Now i know why all those expensive cable manufacturers have their origin in the US , its to compensate for the shitty 50 year old aluminium cabling :)
I thought that only still existed in 3 rd world countries , but i was obviously wrong .
This is a common issue in the USA. Because so much technology has been invented here, we have the original implementation and thus the oldest version of said technology. Radio, Television, Internet, Mobile phones, etc.
 

andromedaaudio

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Just a quick copy paste regarding US
As already said before with the ultra expensive products he sometimes tests you might expect at least a good conductor in the powerline .
Look what all those manufaturers like boulder do to make an absolute pure high tech powersupply / signal path .
You might expect at least modern copper powerlines


Image result for united states aluminum power cabling
In 1972, the formula for aluminum wiring changed, making it a much safer product. Aluminum wiring was used in single family homes for a few years after that, but was completely phased out by the mid-'70s.

What is the problem with aluminum wiring?


Aluminum will become defective faster than copper due to certain qualities inherent in the metal. Neglected connections in outlets, switches and light fixtures containing aluminum wiring become increasingly dangerous over time. Poor connections cause wiring to overheat, creating a potential fire hazard.
Aluminum can conduct electricity but it does not conduct electricity as well as copper. Aluminum forms an electrically resistant oxide surface in electrical connections, which can cause the connection to overheat.
 
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ddk

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I was addressing mainly a few friends , some distributors and the large overall community of WBF in general.
since you’re so factual please provide your data on WBF community and their position on this topic.
??? o_O o_O o_O


Who was addressing small regenerators?
you were with ps audio
Why are solar inverters different from audiophile regenerators? I think Steve can at any moment switch between solar and grid - and at night there is no solar!



Every company has a different approach, some more objective, others more magic. As long as there are no open reports on objective and subjective findings and debate they are just rumors ...
So what is your stance on the topic of using crappy electrical wiring and associated problems to review and sometimes promote obscenely expensive components for decades? Doesn’t the quality have a profound effect on sound quality?

david
 
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microstrip

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You seems that you like PS power regenerator a lot. But a lot of people can’t get away from P20 fast enough. One WBF member who is crazy about power supply have bought PS20 twice. And he sold them soon after. So PS20 is not penicillin to every electrical power problems.

Yes, no one can say that something is an universal solution in this hobby. But I expect that when people report negative experiences they give detail enough to be of use, not to be used as a weapon against some type of equipment, someone or a brand.
 

microstrip

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since you’re so factual please provide your data on WBF community and their position on this topic.

All posts are archived and accessible, feel free to read them. Power regenerators were always were a very participated subject.

you were with ps audio

If you had read the M. Fremer articles you would know he used a PS Audio PP20, not the small old regenertors we both used to power turntable motors.

So what is your stance on the topic of using crappy electrical wiring and associated problems to review and sometimes promote obscenely expensive components for decades? Doesn’t the quality have a profound effect on sound quality?

david

It does not affect my opinion and use of reviews. As others stated we must learn how to read reviews. IMHO Michael Fremer is lucky that his Dartzeel configuration can be particularly insensitive to power wiring - battery power supply, 50 ohm ICs and an integrated phono. Our Lamm' equipment is extremely sensitive to any problem in power wiring or grounding as they are single ended high impedance inputs - we must use them with cheaters to cut the ground connection or simply cut the safety ground wire when using long wires to avoid hum.

Some of the best sound I have listened was in an old house with extremely poor wiring, old fuse rusty fuse boxes. Some vintage signal and speaker wires are now oxidized due to out gassing of the poor quality old insulators and people still love them. The same for most vintage capacitors. Surely I prefer having a system with a decent power and ground wiring, but I am a believer in the last 2 meters - IMMV.

BTW, the more informative and interesting review I have ever read about the Lamm ML3's was from M. Fremer.
 

Addicted to hifi

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I don’t believe anything in micheal fremers reviews. His room is small and big speakers in corners of the room Doesn’t make any sense to me.long time ago I bought a preamp on his great review and it sounded very poor.since than I don’t look at anything he reviews.
 

thomask

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I don’t believe anything in micheal fremers reviews. His room is small and big speakers in corners of the room Doesn’t make any sense to me.long time ago I bought a preamp on his great review and it sounded very poor.since than I don’t look at anything he reviews.
I agree with you.

Reviewer' room shall be at least as big as my room.

20211023_140326-33.jpg
 

bonzo75

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I don’t believe anything in micheal fremers reviews. His room is small and big speakers in corners of the room Doesn’t make any sense to me.long time ago I bought a preamp on his great review and it sounded very poor.since than I don’t look at anything he reviews.

What was the preamp? Which review
 

ddk

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All posts are archived and accessible, feel free to read them. Power regenerators were always were a very participated subject.
This has nothing to do with your claim of WBF majority, do you even know how many WBF members there are to know what the majority believe on this topic?
If you had read the M. Fremer articles you would know he used a PS Audio PP20, not the small old regenertors we both used to power turntable motors.
For me it's still a small unit when maximum continuous rating is only 2kva not sure how it works in the real world under different loads but that's an aside what I mentioned was the coloration that such units introduce changing the character of the system and homogenizing it.

I never used any PS Audio units for my tts only lab regenerators of 1.5kva and bigger but I've had them so I know what they are.

It does not affect my opinion and use of reviews. As others stated we must learn how to read reviews. IMHO Michael Fremer is lucky that his Dartzeel configuration can be particularly insensitive to power wiring - battery power supply, 50 ohm ICs and an integrated phono. Our Lamm' equipment is extremely sensitive to any problem in power wiring or grounding as they are single ended high impedance inputs - we must use them with cheaters to cut the ground connection or simply cut the safety ground wire when using long wires to avoid hum.
Which is all fine if eliminating unwanted hum and buzz and a simple way of solving a problem.

Some of the best sound I have listened was in an old house with extremely poor wiring, old fuse rusty fuse boxes. Some vintage signal and speaker wires are now oxidized due to out gassing of the poor quality old insulators and people still love them. The same for most vintage capacitors. Surely I prefer having a system with a decent power and ground wiring, but I am a believer in the last 2 meters - IMMV.
Agree with most of this and I'm also a very firm believer of the last 2m and the importance of getting it right but it doesn't mean that wiring before it isn't important.
BTW, the more informative and interesting review I have ever read about the Lamm ML3's was from M. Fremer.
I listen to them almost daily for over 13 years and have my own opinion of them. Our preferred systems and even music choices are total opposites no common ground on anything for us.

You never answered me, what is your opinion of these regenerators how they sounded in your home?

david
 
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bonzo75

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Audible illusions 3a preamp.

So, in this review from 1996 which you said he recommended, he says "And yet there was definitely something missing: on reference discs like Belafonte at Carnegie Hall (RCA LS0-6006-2-R before the Classic reissue), the air in the hall wasn't there, top-end extension lacked detail, ambient trails seemed to dry up prematurely. On Bang Baaroom and Harp (RCA LSP 1866) the metallic quality to the percussion—the shimmer—seemed muted and mellow. Pleasant listening, but lacking in brassy bite.

Good as what was there was, what was missing left me dissatisfied. I was not a happy camper."

 
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Addicted to hifi

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What was the preamp? Which review
So, in this review from 1996 which you said he recommended, he says "And yet there was definitely something missing: on reference discs like Belafonte at Carnegie Hall (RCA LS0-6006-2-R before the Classic reissue), the air in the hall wasn't there, top-end extension lacked detail, ambient trails seemed to dry up prematurely. On Bang Baaroom and Harp (RCA LSP 1866) the metallic quality to the percussion—the shimmer—seemed muted and mellow. Pleasant listening, but lacking in brassy bite.

Good as what was there was, what was missing left me dissatisfied. I was not a happy camper."


I guess you read like you write
He ended up the review by saying one of the finest preamps available at a bargain price which I don’t agree to.he never mentioned the preamp chews the tubes up really badly and have to be changed very often and that the cd input sounds inferior to the tapedeck input which I found out myself.
 
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bonzo75

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He ended up the review by saying one of the finest preamps available at a bargain price which I don’t agree to.he never mentioned the preamp chews the tubes up really badly and have to be changed very often and that the cd input sounds inferior to the tapedeck input which I found out myself.

With reviewers you should read the text, and the mentions in follow up articles, and understand the reviewer. Those negatives I quoted clearly mean he didn't like it. Reviewers usually end politely

Same with forum posters writing on their friend's system
 

Addicted to hifi

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With reviewers you should read the text, and the mentions in follow up articles, and understand the reviewer. Those negatives I quoted clearly mean he didn't like it. Reviewers usually end politely

Same with forum posters writing on their friend's system
disagree. He bought it and used it as his reference preamp for a few years.
 

ddk

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So, in this review from 1996 which you said he recommended, he says "And yet there was definitely something missing: on reference discs like Belafonte at Carnegie Hall (RCA LS0-6006-2-R before the Classic reissue), the air in the hall wasn't there, top-end extension lacked detail, ambient trails seemed to dry up prematurely. On Bang Baaroom and Harp (RCA LSP 1866) the metallic quality to the percussion—the shimmer—seemed muted and mellow. Pleasant listening, but lacking in brassy bite.

Good as what was there was, what was missing left me dissatisfied. I was not a happy camper."


I guess you read like you write
Those were his comments on the older Mod 3 not the 3a.

david
 

bonzo75

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Those were his comments on the older Mod 3 not the 3a.

david

Ok I see he is writing about 3 and 3a there.

The only preamps he is referencing at that point is AR PH3 and sonic frontiers.

And yes, he loved it in that reference level.

So addicted to hifi, when you tried this pre, what was your reference level, was it similar to Fremer's at that time?
 
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marty

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OT and FWIW- I owned the Audible Illusions Modulus 3a circa 1979 as it was the first tube preamp that made me think "OK, I get it. I understand what a tube preamp is trying to be!" Audio memory lane can be a bitch. But I really enjoyed that Modulus 3a with Telefunkens.
 

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