More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[Audire]

Joe, what is the misinformation? OCD simply stated his opinion that he thinks the best DAC is Playback. He does not like MSB. They think part of the problem is the technology with streaming. Is that misinformation? Do you have other examples from each of them?

Peter,

I don’t enjoy MSB either. I agree with Mikey that’s it’s to analytical.. I also feel there are numerous DACs out there that surpass it. But Playback Designs was the only other DAC discussed, because Mikey endorses it! I’ve had PBD in my system (borrowed from a friend). IMO it was better than the MSB Ref, but not the Select II, and IMO the Select II is surpassed by other DACs …. Such as EMM DA2v2 and the Ideon Absolute + Time …, If the same stream is going to both DACs, then it simply can‘t be the tech with streaming!

 

[Alrainbow]

I detest Roon Radio. I discovered it the first time I used Roon. I played Bach's St Matthew's Passion and afterward, when I thought it had stopped, the thing launched all by itself into what it thought was similar. I was appalled. Then I spent time trying to figure out how to turn it off. I can understand liking it but not everyone will.

It’s a great feature it can be turned off on a few places including the player screen
To me I turn off or on depending my mood.
it does help me find new music for sure

 

[Alrainbow]

Pretty interesting view from Jay and OCD Mikey (member @Verastarr): vinyl vs streaming

Chairs on loan and jay should pay attention to mike
Not how he talks but he does know more
Then jay just saying

 

[Alrainbow]

Peter,

I don’t enjoy MSB either. I agree with Mikey that’s it’s to analytical.. I also feel there are numerous DACs out there that surpass it. But Playback Designs was the only other DAC discussed, because Mikey endorses it! I’ve had PBD in my system (borrowed from a friend). IMO it was better than the MSB Ref, but not the Select II, and IMO the Select II is surpassed by other DACs …. Such as EMM DA2v2 and the Ideon Absolute + Time …, If the same stream is going to both DACs, then it simply can‘t be the tech with streaming!

How we each hear or better to say like to hear in itself makes discussions tough
MSB is close and ill say voiced to sound analog very good analog at that
ideon is much more close to digital as I hear it. Very solid sounding. Can’t comment on playback no references.

 

[Alrainbow]

Tidal streaming can be done two ways if used with desktop it in the past sound better.
can’t say now I use Roon or squeeze to play tidal
Another way is you can download tidal files
And it plays them now there local
Can’t say it’s better have not tried yet. I’m sure expensive dacs like MSB or wadax to name some is better than a steamer server same with Roon on them. I can’t say for sure but when I did own a MSB stack there cd transport / streamer was above any server / streamer I could make took a couple of years to catch them
And this was before sel 2.

 

[Another Johnson]

As I post this there are 585 posts. I watched the OP of Paul McGowan, and I’ve read a handful of the responses.

Rather than debate the merits of streaming, I’m just going to share my own experience. This will not end where you might think I’m going with it.

I was a very late adopter of the CD and SACD formats due to the fact that I preferred my vinyl. The Phillips/Sony promise of “perfect sound forever” was obviously shown to be overly optimistic by auditions and comparos.

When I finally adopted CDs, it was because they were superior to the cassette tapes that I played in my car. At home CDs were great for background music. They were not for critical listening.

Since the early ‘90s my collections of vinyl, CDs and SACDs all grew together.

My analog and digital front ends both improved as advances were made. Eventually my sense was that both were legitimate as sources for critical intense listening.

When streaming first appeared we did not live in area where internet service was adequate for streaming (DSL was our only option, and it was barely adequate for mediocre results.) So I ignored streaming up until the last few years.

When we moved to an area served by better data transmission capabilities, I bought a high level service and some HEOS controlled Marantz and Denon devices.

Quality was mediocre and varied from unreliable to acceptable for background music. We discovered internet radio, Amazon, Apple, and similar. My wife loves internet radio on the Denon Home 350 in the central part of the house.

I experimented with various streamers and network players, Qobuz, Amazon Prime, and similar. I was always disappointed by what I perceived as variable quality. It often sounded compressed. There were drop outs. Sometimes it seemed to be noisy.

With the help of friends, I discovered that my high data package was not delivering the service I was paying for. Armed with packet loss, latency and jitter data, I went over to my isp and pounded the table. They discovered a problem on their side of my gateway, and a few hours later they had fixed it.

With my internet service finally delivering the full bandwidth, I was able to begin to construct an audiophile level of performance in my system.

The end result after many auditions, trials, and errors is

1. Attend to isp to assure delivery of paid for bandwidth. Run Ethernet to system.
2. Subscribe to Qobuz
3. Subscribe to Roon and install Nucleus on network
4. Install dCS Rossini on network.

This setup competes credibly on a sonic level with my other front ends. It is a legitimate audiophile level source.

Often I prefer vinyl if I have the recording in my collection, but not always. The biggest advantage to streaming is the instant gratification. I can hear new artists, new versions, long playlists, etc without buying new media, and without leaving my chair.

Since Amazon Prime is not compatible with Roon, I have a second BluOS controlled set up with McIntosh DAC, and a third HEOS controlled set up with Marantz streamer and DAC. The Qobuz Nucleus Rossini setup is the best of these though.

My streaming no longer sucks. It only rarely disappoints me, and that’s always due to problems at Qobuz or Amazon Prime. I have no control over what they do.

 

[Gregadd]

For watching movies maybe ! Head rest in reflective material is not great for audio !

I use headphones.

 

[Gregadd]

Then we have a showdown with vinyl vs digita(Or Kronos vs MSB.) Conclusion .CD is better than streaming. What say you Mr. Spock? Illogical.

 

[Al M.]

Conclusion .CD is better than streaming. What say you Mr. Spock? Illogical.

Illogical when you don't have all the facts. Those who boasted in the 1970s about the low THD numbers of their newly acquired transistor amplifiers didn't have all the facts either.

 

[Audire]

Then we have a showdown with vinyl vs digita(Or Kronos vs MSB.) Conclusion .CD is better than streaming. What say you Mr. Spock? Illogical.

I agree that if one has the right Transport than CDs can out do streaming - at least to us. However, it’s not by that much.

 

[Al M.]

BTW, I am not claiming that competent CD playback (preferably with external reclocker) is better than all streaming. But it's hard to get streaming to a level where it competes.

 

[Gregadd]

I agree that if one has the right Transport than CDs can out do streaming - at least to us. However, it’s not by that much.

To me CD couuld never make it on its own. Go ahead give the hardware and the software to demonstrate that.

 

[Audire]

To me CD couuld never make it on its own. Go ahead give the hardware and the software to demonstrate that.

Our Vitus Masterpiece Transport and Masterpiece DAC plays CDs wonderfully, better than streaming thru our Aurender N30SA. But it’s not by much. However, hearing is believing.

 

[tima]

I understand that some of you this is merely advertising for Playback

I thought it was advertising for Jay and for Verastar ... self promotion.

 

[Gregadd]

Our Vitus Masterpiece Transport and Masterpiece DAC plays CDs wonderfully, better than streaming thru our Aurender N30SA. But it’s not by much. However, hearing is believing.

Let's make sure we are comparing apples to apples.
Redbook CD read by excellent transport.
converted by excellent dac
Modern digital recording using latest technology.
Streamed across something like the Taiko Extreme.
Converted by excellent dac of equal quality.
I am open to be convinced.
You tell me how a Redbook CD has any ability to sound better than a current digital recording?
I would also note you failed to mention software in your example. You are going to have to do more than just say CD.

 

[Willgolf]

I am 100% digital. I use Roon through my Lucas Audio LDMS. I also have Tidal and Qobuz. As I sit in my nice lazy boy, I just can't get over how great my music sounds. I can't see how it can get any better with the combination of cords, cables, DAC, amplifier, and speakers that I have.
I am not going to argue on what the best source or format is. I am just going to enjoy what I have and if I don't like a song, I grab my IPAD and change it. I never have to get out of my seat. It is probably why I sold my vinyl collection!
There are no right or wrong answers here. Enjoy the music.

 

[tima]

The biggest advantage to streaming is the instant gratification.

Do you find yourself flipping channels?

 

[Amir]

Peter,

I don’t enjoy MSB either. I agree with Mikey that’s it’s to analytical.. I also feel there are numerous DACs out there that surpass it. But Playback Designs was the only other DAC discussed, because Mikey endorses it! I’ve had PBD in my system (borrowed from a friend). IMO it was better than the MSB Ref, but not the Select II, and IMO the Select II is surpassed by other DACs …. Such as EMM DA2v2 and the Ideon Absolute + Time …, If the same stream is going to both DACs, then it simply can‘t be the tech with streaming!

Audire
Actually no DAC is analytical if you listen to a DAC in proper setup.
EMM Labs, Vitus, Wadia, MSB, dCS, Playback design, Bidat, Wadax, Weiss, Lavry, Audio Note and ... all of those dacs are ok and if you do not enjoy digital it does not mean the DAC is analytical.
Some DACs like TAD, Wadia, Vitus, Playback design, Emm labs, Bidat have good time domain pulse response and some DACs like dCS, Weiss prefer to have good frequency response.

You may also hear more analog sound from NOS dacs like Audio Note DAC5 but the main problem of digital sound is not about DACs, it is not more than 20%.
In theory both digital (Disc, Stream, File) and analog (Tape, LP) formats can be musical if we had high rez AAD records:
- AAD DSD wide 8bit
- AAD 24bit 96khz PCM

If your system does not show more than 30% contrast between LP vs Digital then it means your system is not enough transparent.
In practice you see most digital records are not good and in real world the best way to have good sound is having good turntable and buying good old LP records.

I think David's (@ddk) opinion is right in this subject.

 

[Audire]

Audire
Actually no DAC is analytical if you listen to a DAC in proper setup.
EMM Labs, Vitus, Wadia, MSB, dCS, Playback design, Bidat, Wadax, Weiss, Lavry, Audio Note and ... all of those dacs are ok and if you do not enjoy digital it does not mean the DAC is analytical.
Some DACs like TAD, Wadia, Vitus, Playback design, Emm labs, Bidat have good time domain pulse response and some DACs like dCS, Weiss prefer to have good frequency response.

You may also hear more analog sound from NOS dacs like Audio Note DAC5 but the main problem of digital sound is not about DACs, it is not more than 20%.
In theory both digital (Disc, Stream, File) and analog (Tape, LP) formats can be musical if we had high rez AAD records:
- AAD DSD wide 8bit
- AAD 24bit 96khz PCM

If your system does not show more than 30% contrast between LP vs Digital then it means your system is not enough transparent.
In practice you see most digital records are not good and in real world the best way to have good sound is having good turntable and buying good old LP records.

I think David's (@ddk) opinion is right in this subject.

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I respectfully disagree with most of it.

First, to my ears the MSB Select II sounds too analytical. While it gets very close to real music it doesn’t seem to have the same level of genuine warmth and soul as vinyl does. This said, it’s still very very good, but to my ears EMM Labs DA2V2, Ideon Absolute + Time, Vitus Masterpeice, and now that I’ve listened to a friend‘s Lampi Horizon all sound better to me …

Second, IMO, it’s disingenuous to say a properly set up digital rig is 30% away from a properly set up vinyl rig. If one’s digital is properly set up then it can sound like a different Cart on a vinyl rig. While they may sound “different,“ I wouldn’t use the word “better“ to describe one over the other.

Third, I don’t like digital records either. So, here we agree.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Actually no DAC is analytical if you listen to a DAC in proper setup.

As this is a subjective hobby, I think this makes no sense on its face.

EMM Labs, Vitus, Wadia, MSB, dCS, Playback design, Bidat, Wadax, Weiss, Lavry, Audio Note and ...

From this list of DACs how many direct A/B comparisons have you yourself made? Which pairs from this list have you yourself actually compared directly in the same system?

I think David's (@ddk) opinion is right in this subject.

Isn't David of the view that high-end music streamers don't matter (meaning that an iPad music streamer doesn't sound inferior to a high-end streamer (all else being equal))?