you have compared that to the version?
compared to what streamed version?
More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?
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Yes, everything matters, but does it make these types of comparisons meaningless ? I don't think so, and certainly less meaningless than comparing two completely different masterings of a random album (as was done in the Jay/OCD video)...
Again, I respectfully disagree. Besides calling MSB good I also called it “analytical”, but never “bright.” You added brightness into the conversation, not me!
What I mean by analytical is very detailed to the point of some excess. I’ve heard the Select II and even the Ref in several systems, not just my own (our old system). It always sounded the same - too analytical. This said, it’s still very good, but just not my preference in a high end DAC.
Amir, this is a subjective hobby. All of us hear differently. We each have our own preferences. While you are certainly entitled to your opinion, the rest of us are as well. Just because some may disagree with you doesn’t mean we have poorly set up systems.
PS: If you are indeed a distributor, then it should be in your signature line.
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i have over 800 2xdsd files ripped from vinyl i own. these were all done at least 7-10 years ago. and played over a 10 year period on a number of dacs and servers of increasing quality. these sound very good and i listen to them often.
the original vinyl is always better, sometimes lots better. mostly i prefer a great high rez PCM tape transfer, sometimes it's just different. sometimes a redbook tape transfer is better. the Wadax dac and sever reveal the most differences between versions i have heard.
original all digital recordings can be as satisfying to listen to as the vinyl rips. there are digital recordings of all degrees of quality.
it's rare on the Wadax that any digital sounds bright or analytical. but recordings can be that way. in fact it's more common to find a bright vinyl pressing than bright digital files. but i do own 1000+ vinyl sourced from digital. but some all analog pressings are bright too.
and not all systems are mature enough to navigate good truthful digital and keep it natural sounding. so system context is critical.
what is causing what? analog is much less demanding of system optimization for naturalness.
i want my system to tell me differences between recordings, be truthful. if it all sounds pretty you have a coloration.....which maybe you like but it's not the music. but if you like it then it's good.
there are always exceptions to generalizations. but over time you do get a feel for things.
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I auditioned the Neodio Origine S2 CD player vis a vis Tron Electric Atlantic GTT DAC and Aurrender n20 in the same system going back and forth with the same select tracks. For me it came down to a matter of presentation preference versus one being superior to the other. While there I also listened to TW Acustic vinyl set-up. I am not a vinyl guy largely because there is not enough music and quality pressings of the music genre I largely prefer; that said if I was making a decision that day with all as viable options for me I would have gone with the TW Acustic. It wasn't a night and day difference between it and the other 2, but it did have a slightly more music emotion grab for me.
In the end, and this was alluded to by someone else, whatever format satisfies one's musical needs is all that should matter versus having someone else tell you what format you must have.
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I have listened to those dacs since 2000 and I have wrote about dacs in my weblog
www.hifi.ir
Some photos from my last DAC comparison , all of DACs and transports are mine. We have repeated the test in different speaker positions. CEC TL0 3.0 Transport / Audio Note DAC 5 / Weiss Medus DAC / Vitus CD/DAC / TAD D600
I've often wondered about that. There may be also something going on with the digital to analog conversion interaction with amplification that you don't get when simply using analog to digital conversion to generate "files". Not sure I'm being clear... What I mean is that in itself the analog to digital step (sampling, etc...), provided a certain level of quality, may give excellent results, contrary to popular belief...and it's more the conversion back to analog that may be more of an issue. Impossible to verify!
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Ron
I am electronics engineer and you know in electronics engineering there is a course about measurement devices like oscilloscope.
we can not measure a accurate device like military grade circuits with a high distortion device. It means your measuring devices should be more accurate/calibrated than the under test device (UTD). Over 90% of audio systems are not properly setup and there are many problems there like awful AC quality, bad room acoustics, bad speaker placement and ... in those setups we can not judge a dac like MSB. I am not fan of MSB DAC but MSB engineers have spend many time/effort to have good sound and we can not judge MSB in non-properly setup systems.
I am electronics engineer and you know in electronics engineering there is a course about measurement devices like oscilloscope.
we can not measure a accurate device like military grade circuits with a high distortion device. It means your measuring devices should be more accurate/calibrated than the under test device (UTD). Over 90% of audio systems are not properly setup and there are many problems there like awful AC quality, bad room acoustics, bad speaker placement and ... in those setups we can not judge a dac like MSB. I am not fan of MSB DAC but MSB engineers have spend many time/effort to have good sound and we can not judge MSB in non-properly setup systems.
You can listen to this config in real time conversion :
Tape -> ADC -> DAC -> Tape -> Real time Playback
Tape -> Playback
You will not hear huge difference , you can check it
Thanks Audire,
Let me give an example about dCS and Weiss DACs. Both DACs are sharp and I have listened to both of them in different systems. In Some systems dCS and Weiss were sharper than natural and in some systems dCS and Weiss were 100% OK .
Ron had similar experience with VDH Calibri and he was sure VDH is bright then he listened to VDH in David's home and convinced VDH is not bright.
we should be smarter to not simply judge audio equipments. I am not fan of MSB but I regard their effort for producing better DAC.
sometimes the problem is AC quality, maybe the MSB DAC is more sensitive to AC quality. I think TAD D600 is more sensitive to AC quality than vitus in my tests.
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you are trying to find a 'think around' to the fact that digital conversion either way is simply not transparent. in our digital experience we have many, many experiences of different adc's. the result is always by degrees the same. something gets lost. at every conversion.
OTOH it's wonderful, and it's good enough to be greatly enjoyable. i'm very invested in it.
let's just stop asking it to be more than it is. and enjoy the positives.
Nothing is transparent. I'm aware of that. I am not looking for "think arounds". I have not even stated any preferences for either analog or digital (I happen to use both, and the choice for me is not only a question of "quality").
Obviously listening to music is wonderful, we can enjoy the positives, etc.. etc.., but that does not prevent us from trying to understand what is going on! Why would all of a sudden "listening" and "enjoyment" be incompatible with "understanding" ?
And as far as experiencing different ADCs, you cannot experience an ADC without a DAC!
I am just speculating, because experience will always present limitations to understand the real mechanisms involved.
P.S. What got me into hi-fi was experiencing a very good all analog rig at a dealers' 20 years ago...
I am just speculating, because experience will always present limitations to understand the real mechanisms involved.
P.S. What got me into hi-fi was experiencing a very good all analog rig at a dealers' 20 years ago...
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Whoa ! … This space appears to be an acoustic nightmare ! You are saying that you have Never heard a ‘Bright’ sounding DAC ,or any other electronics for that matter, sounding ’Bright’ in that room ?
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Amir, I like the idea of a wooden ceiling. Do you ever adjust the blinds on the window to affect the sonics of the room?
Peter,
Thanks for your perfect idea, yes I love the wood tone and in my opinion the best tone comes from natural wood parquet .
I live in a big complex (more than 200 apartments) and yesterday I asked the lobby manager to find a apartment in ground floor. I will change my room for better acoustics. There are some nice apartments with bigger hall for sound, ceiling height is higher and the width is more than 7 meters.
TAD R1 pattern is very wide and the side walls kill the sound. My room is not good for my speaker.
After finding the suitable hall then I will use natural wood parquet and fill the room with more furniture to lower the RT.
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