Oh, I think you made a good choice with MSB
. I am happy with my digital rig as well.JP
MSB Select II arrival
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
Oh, I think you made a good choice with MSB
. I am happy with my digital rig as well.JP
I would guess similar league? But I would say the C1 up samples everything even though it is R-2R and the Select 2 I am informed is the first MSB that doesn't. Also the Select has enough gain apparently to not need a line stage, so maybe less parts in the signal path? The C1 uses 8 chips for D/A and the MSB multiple SMD resistors. As to which is more accurate, I have no idea. I would love to hear the full C1/X1 system v Select v Total DAC 12 just to know how it shapes up.
And throw in the Kassandre for good measure!
I love my old school Audio Note DAC 5. I heard the C1 on it's own in my system and much preferred my Audio Note, as it seems closer to vinyl to me, I can listen all day and loud. I am sure personal tastes come into this, as does the rest of the system. It is never wire with gain, and a super transparent DAC with super revealing speakers may not always work well, system synergy I think. Also a 'warmish' DAC will sound slow in another system. I am using very basic terms, but you get my drift. Folk used to argue all DACs sound the same, most on here know that is not the truth. Just as pre-amplifiers sound different, and a DAC is more or less 60% pre-amplifier if we look at power supply and line stage and the way it is all hooked together.
So IMO any ultimate DAC may work great for one system or person, but not for everyone or in every system. And I am convinced as you go up the sale with other components (amplifiers and speakers) it gets even more obvious how different they can sound and the effect they can have. It is as if the higher you go, the more complex it gets? But the enjoyment, if it is always their it is worth it IMO. At least as long as you don't have to double mortgage the house doing it....
Sorry I haven't given any further impressions as I was in my summer place for the last 4 weeks.
Got home yesterday and had a package waiting for me. The new ultraRendu with faceplate for both the ultraRendu + UpTone LPS-1 replacing my microRendu. Let it "burn in" for a day but to be honest the Select II is so revealing that these changes are so apprarent and can say it's a great combo and betters the microRendu; but I still await the new MSB renderer before ultimately deciding the best input.
Not a subtle upgrade in my system. Have had a monster listening session, stopping only for thunderstorms (those and hurricanes will likely drive me out of South FL for good) and once again truly amazed at how good digital is and continues to progress.
Got home yesterday and had a package waiting for me. The new ultraRendu with faceplate for both the ultraRendu + UpTone LPS-1 replacing my microRendu. Let it "burn in" for a day but to be honest the Select II is so revealing that these changes are so apprarent and can say it's a great combo and betters the microRendu; but I still await the new MSB renderer before ultimately deciding the best input.
Not a subtle upgrade in my system. Have had a monster listening session, stopping only for thunderstorms (those and hurricanes will likely drive me out of South FL for good) and once again truly amazed at how good digital is and continues to progress.
my opinion used to be different.
i'm listening to the Tilson Thomas-SF Symphony Mahler 5th on the big rig right now, in 24-96 PCM off my hard drive through the MSB Select II/SGM server right now. on the 5th Movement. had the lights down and was kicking back for the first 4 movements. I'm no Mahler expert or even Classical expert (so no flames about the Tilson Thomas version sucking).
it's been involving and a satisfying musical experience and kept my attention.
nothing flat or lacking nuance or micro-dynamics about this. lots of action and great separation, space, realism and authority. I listen to lots of classical on the Select II.
last night I had a few serious analog focused guys over and we listened to quite a bit of digital; mostly string quartets, and classical piano. they were quite amazed at the natural, spacious and focused presentation. one of them is a classical composer and professor. he was especially taken with a redbook Haydn String Quartet and the sound staging and natural tone.
other recent visitors have given me similar feedback.
can Lps still be better? sure they can but not by as much as you might think.......but don't blame the digital format for the apparent significant difference between cd and lp, it's the particular digital playback systems that are lacking. my vinyl playback is up there in the higher realm too......but still the digital gets closer.
i'm listening to the Tilson Thomas-SF Symphony Mahler 5th on the big rig right now, in 24-96 PCM off my hard drive through the MSB Select II/SGM server right now. on the 5th Movement. had the lights down and was kicking back for the first 4 movements. I'm no Mahler expert or even Classical expert (so no flames about the Tilson Thomas version sucking
).it's been involving and a satisfying musical experience and kept my attention.
nothing flat or lacking nuance or micro-dynamics about this. lots of action and great separation, space, realism and authority. I listen to lots of classical on the Select II.
last night I had a few serious analog focused guys over and we listened to quite a bit of digital; mostly string quartets, and classical piano. they were quite amazed at the natural, spacious and focused presentation. one of them is a classical composer and professor. he was especially taken with a redbook Haydn String Quartet and the sound staging and natural tone.
other recent visitors have given me similar feedback.
can Lps still be better? sure they can but not by as much as you might think.......but don't blame the digital format for the apparent significant difference between cd and lp, it's the particular digital playback systems that are lacking. my vinyl playback is up there in the higher realm too......but still the digital gets closer.
Glad I found this thread
hello Tuba67, welcome to What's Best Forum.
and welcome to this MSB Select II thread and congrats on owning the Select II. looks like silver in color and one power supply?
you have a very nice system to enjoy that Select II, congrats on that too. got to sound wonderful there.
Mike- are there certain things the MSB actually does *better* than your Wave Kinetics rig?
better? b e t t e r?
other than with native digital recordings you mean? better with analog based recordings? hummmm?
i'll have to noodle that for a bit and get back to you. I've not really listened with that in mind. my vinyl is very low in distortion and quite neutral, so the presentations are very similar.
Yes, is sound stage, dynamics, flow, bass or [fill in the blank] better on one format vs. another.
I say this because it seems everyone compares digital to good analog (the overused phrase "sounds like analog" being used often by reviewers)- are we at the point where great digital does things better than analog. Is analog not the reference point anymore?
I say this because it seems everyone compares digital to good analog (the overused phrase "sounds like analog" being used often by reviewers)- are we at the point where great digital does things better than analog. Is analog not the reference point anymore?
I'm going to side step the whole digital vinyl question for now; I don't have my arms sufficiently around the answer (if there is an answer). and honestly I'm enjoying the music too much to get into it.
tonight I am absolutely enjoying (under the spell of) the 2012 192khz/24 bit recording of a Chamber ensemble version of Mahler#4, Trevor Pinnock conducting the Royal Academy of Music Soloist's Ensemble. I'm not a Mahler or Classical expert, but this one really hits the spot. all the little nuance things that vinyl does are here and it's all so physically easy on my senses, natural and super intimate and involving. the tone and textures are intoxicating. the room is alive with realism and delight. reach out and touch it holographic presentation.....at least here in the barn.
along with the intimate and subtle are the big macro moments. overall a Chamber Music scale, but moments of shock and awe too.
is this digital? it's certainly something.
http://www.linnrecords.com/recording-mahler-symphonie-no-4.aspx
the Select II/SGM delivers again.....and again. it seems this combo is made for my system. it transcends the concept of formats and just does music.
tonight I am absolutely enjoying (under the spell of) the 2012 192khz/24 bit recording of a Chamber ensemble version of Mahler#4, Trevor Pinnock conducting the Royal Academy of Music Soloist's Ensemble. I'm not a Mahler or Classical expert, but this one really hits the spot. all the little nuance things that vinyl does are here and it's all so physically easy on my senses, natural and super intimate and involving. the tone and textures are intoxicating. the room is alive with realism and delight. reach out and touch it holographic presentation.....at least here in the barn.
along with the intimate and subtle are the big macro moments. overall a Chamber Music scale, but moments of shock and awe too.
is this digital? it's certainly something.
http://www.linnrecords.com/recording-mahler-symphonie-no-4.aspx
the Select II/SGM delivers again.....and again. it seems this combo is made for my system. it transcends the concept of formats and just does music.
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Mike, I'll make a wager with you that no matter how good the Select II proves to be, w the added Powerbases, upon Taiko Tanas, whatever, you'll not come on here and say it "finally" fully matches, let alone exceeds, yr analog
I'm pretty confident about that LOL despite never myself hearing digital at the cutting edge that the Select II represents
In my case I've found digital I'm totally comfortable with, that I look fwd everyday to listening to, that I have zero wish to upgrade beyond, and that does so many things so much superior to other digital (all in a $15k one box 16/44 cdp, and also Blue58's SGM)
But when I return to analog, a certain cognitive ease returns that I just don't experience in digital to anywhere the same extent
And having just completed ten live unamplified classical gigs in two weeks to refamiliarise myself w the real thing, I remain convinced great analog is really the only format that gets even remotely close to the creamy continuousness and tonal solidity of the real thing, despite HiRez SEEMINGLY being the closest comparison
(cue HiRez guys telling me to test my hearing and my sanity)
I'm pretty confident about that LOL despite never myself hearing digital at the cutting edge that the Select II represents
In my case I've found digital I'm totally comfortable with, that I look fwd everyday to listening to, that I have zero wish to upgrade beyond, and that does so many things so much superior to other digital (all in a $15k one box 16/44 cdp, and also Blue58's SGM)
But when I return to analog, a certain cognitive ease returns that I just don't experience in digital to anywhere the same extent
And having just completed ten live unamplified classical gigs in two weeks to refamiliarise myself w the real thing, I remain convinced great analog is really the only format that gets even remotely close to the creamy continuousness and tonal solidity of the real thing, despite HiRez SEEMINGLY being the closest comparison
(cue HiRez guys telling me to test my hearing and my sanity)
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What is your CD player?
I get your point. Maybe coming from a vinyl enthusiast and having both that is understandable. I don't have such a luxury, or want to pay for vinyl prices either. So I am in the digital 'as best we can get' camp but in my case sane budgets. I sold all my vinyl years ago, and do miss it a bit (not the dust or surface noise or weight or storage), but then sold all my CDs 2 years ago as well. If I can enjoy close to that performance with the ability to listen to anything at anytime, it makes sense. I am beyond my CDP now, but sadly may not be quite beyond my vinyl rig. Or is my memory playing tricks? Was it better, or just smoother, less detailed, more body, less accurate? Big subject indeed.
Astro, cdp is the cruelly underrated, and tbh virtually unknown, Eera Tentation, €9k of sheer digital joy
Compared to all the big hitters I've either owned or auditioned (Marantz SA1, Linn CD12, Reimyo, AMR, Emm Labs CDSA, PD, Audiomeca) it comfortably remains w one exception (Marantz CD12/DA12), the single best cdp by far I've ever heard
Thanks to JackD201 for facilitating this journey for me
As a died in the wool analog man, it took me a long long time to find digital that could proudly hold its head up high, and not be embarassed, and this point was reached w my Eera purchase
Similarly, I very much love what I'm hearing from Blue's SGM/T&A Dac8 when it comes to streaming/dsd/HiRez
But I still feel analog maintains a real edge on attributes like palpability, heft, tonal density, timbral accuracy, dimensional discrimination, and sheer energy, and I feel this view was reinforced more than ever immersing myself in live classical music everyday for two weeks
So, I remain (reasonably LOL) confident that however stellar the Select II is (and I have no doubts it is very stellar), Mike won't come online to say it now is the king of those areas that analog has always IMHO triumphed on, and what makes lp (and tape) listening so visceral, and attention demanding, and all encompassing
And at the exalted Select II cost no object price, upward trajectory of digital engineering for over three decades now, and maturation of analog and no major technological leaps for decades now, I stick to my opinion that it's encumbent on the Select II to be doing more than just getting close to best analog
*Mike, sorry to sound so full on, my thoughts are not to be taken aggressively in any way LOL
I just feel that comments hinting that digital is getting "close", or that it can't be called "yet" for digital over analog, have been circulating for years, pretty much since cd's introduction in 1983
And the quality gap STILL remains, as ever it has, in the things that analog is truly magical at doing
Compared to all the big hitters I've either owned or auditioned (Marantz SA1, Linn CD12, Reimyo, AMR, Emm Labs CDSA, PD, Audiomeca) it comfortably remains w one exception (Marantz CD12/DA12), the single best cdp by far I've ever heard
Thanks to JackD201 for facilitating this journey for me
As a died in the wool analog man, it took me a long long time to find digital that could proudly hold its head up high, and not be embarassed, and this point was reached w my Eera purchase
Similarly, I very much love what I'm hearing from Blue's SGM/T&A Dac8 when it comes to streaming/dsd/HiRez
But I still feel analog maintains a real edge on attributes like palpability, heft, tonal density, timbral accuracy, dimensional discrimination, and sheer energy, and I feel this view was reinforced more than ever immersing myself in live classical music everyday for two weeks
So, I remain (reasonably LOL) confident that however stellar the Select II is (and I have no doubts it is very stellar), Mike won't come online to say it now is the king of those areas that analog has always IMHO triumphed on, and what makes lp (and tape) listening so visceral, and attention demanding, and all encompassing
And at the exalted Select II cost no object price, upward trajectory of digital engineering for over three decades now, and maturation of analog and no major technological leaps for decades now, I stick to my opinion that it's encumbent on the Select II to be doing more than just getting close to best analog
*Mike, sorry to sound so full on, my thoughts are not to be taken aggressively in any way LOL
I just feel that comments hinting that digital is getting "close", or that it can't be called "yet" for digital over analog, have been circulating for years, pretty much since cd's introduction in 1983
And the quality gap STILL remains, as ever it has, in the things that analog is truly magical at doing
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Thanks for that spiritofmusic. I have read a few times that the 'resolution' in real terms of vinyl in the midrange is higher than digital. I have no idea if that is true. But thinking how long it took pro photographers to move over to digital I can believe it TBH and some similarities in the tech there.
However, my ideal situation would be greater access to discrete R-2R DACs but at lower prices. That may happen soon, but we may need to look to the far east to drive it (Soekris exempted as in Denmark). There is a market obviously, but most of that market is not here in the 80K price bracket. Not unless you sell products at high markup and low volumes, and that is going to be more difficult as competition builds. For example, when TotalDAC appeared they were almost unique in the sub 10k price bracket, not so now.
However, my ideal situation would be greater access to discrete R-2R DACs but at lower prices. That may happen soon, but we may need to look to the far east to drive it (Soekris exempted as in Denmark). There is a market obviously, but most of that market is not here in the 80K price bracket. Not unless you sell products at high markup and low volumes, and that is going to be more difficult as competition builds. For example, when TotalDAC appeared they were almost unique in the sub 10k price bracket, not so now.
Astro, "most of the market not in the 80k price bracket", yep, I think you may well be right LOL
For me the interesting price point for digital is c$5k w components like Innuous Zenith paired w Aqua La Scala/Schiit Yggy DAC, and is what I'm personally happy to invest in
If this can keep pace w my Eera cdp, I'll be beyond happy
Btw Astro, there is no need to pay astronomic prices for vinyl, plenty at $10 and under online, s/h record shops, bulk collections
Many new overpriced reissues are a con anyway
Returning to the topic, I stick to my contention that cutting edge digital at no holds barred price levels after decades of exponential engineering growth surely needs to be getting past "close" to analog
I wonder just how happy Mike would be if he was left listening 100% of the time to the Select II incl all his Golden Age recordings
New audiophile HiRez is all very well, but would he TRULY be content swapping LZ I or II on 45rpm for a Tidal master thru SGM/Select II?
I confidently predict he wouldn't
Maybe he can tell us
For me the interesting price point for digital is c$5k w components like Innuous Zenith paired w Aqua La Scala/Schiit Yggy DAC, and is what I'm personally happy to invest in
If this can keep pace w my Eera cdp, I'll be beyond happy
Btw Astro, there is no need to pay astronomic prices for vinyl, plenty at $10 and under online, s/h record shops, bulk collections
Many new overpriced reissues are a con anyway
Returning to the topic, I stick to my contention that cutting edge digital at no holds barred price levels after decades of exponential engineering growth surely needs to be getting past "close" to analog
I wonder just how happy Mike would be if he was left listening 100% of the time to the Select II incl all his Golden Age recordings
New audiophile HiRez is all very well, but would he TRULY be content swapping LZ I or II on 45rpm for a Tidal master thru SGM/Select II?
I confidently predict he wouldn't
Maybe he can tell us
no; I don't expect to be saying that what I hear from the Select II meets or exceeds the best of 'my' vinyl. my vinyl is my reference.
but Keith asked me if any part of what I'm hearing is better than vinyl and that's a different question and one I have not worked out. and I'm more in 'enjoy' mode right now, not 'get the answer' mode.
but there is zero doubt that in my experience (I'm not claiming any universal truth) the Select II easily gets closest to 'my own' vinyl of any digital I've heard......and is very much 'like' my vinyl and breaks through previous barriers in vinyl like presentation.
but Keith asked me if any part of what I'm hearing is better than vinyl and that's a different question and one I have not worked out. and I'm more in 'enjoy' mode right now, not 'get the answer' mode.
but there is zero doubt that in my experience (I'm not claiming any universal truth) the Select II easily gets closest to 'my own' vinyl of any digital I've heard......and is very much 'like' my vinyl and breaks through previous barriers in vinyl like presentation.
Sure Mike, no pressure then
As an inveterate analog-phile, even I can hear where digital wins out
Some aspects of upper frequency energy
Some aspects of low bass extension
Some aspects of immediacy
Some aspects of strict neutrality
Some aspects of lower noise
---
And so when I don't listen to vinyl for a while, digital seems to become top dog, esp my expressive Eera cdp and the spooky low noise SGM
But even after a session where cut after cut on digital sounds stellar, playing a great lp just takes you "somewhere else"
Music takes on a carved from granite "thereness", midband transparency just seems more "real" and the listening room charges w energy, in contrast w digital where you listen "at" the music
I just can't see where digital is ever going to cross this divide
But we can all thank our lucky stars that gear exists that gets past the harsh, constipated sound of 80s and 90s digital replay (Marantz CD12/DA12 the honourable exception, pushing close to the Linn Sondek LP12 in 1989)
As an inveterate analog-phile, even I can hear where digital wins out
Some aspects of upper frequency energy
Some aspects of low bass extension
Some aspects of immediacy
Some aspects of strict neutrality
Some aspects of lower noise
---
And so when I don't listen to vinyl for a while, digital seems to become top dog, esp my expressive Eera cdp and the spooky low noise SGM
But even after a session where cut after cut on digital sounds stellar, playing a great lp just takes you "somewhere else"
Music takes on a carved from granite "thereness", midband transparency just seems more "real" and the listening room charges w energy, in contrast w digital where you listen "at" the music
I just can't see where digital is ever going to cross this divide
But we can all thank our lucky stars that gear exists that gets past the harsh, constipated sound of 80s and 90s digital replay (Marantz CD12/DA12 the honourable exception, pushing close to the Linn Sondek LP12 in 1989)
Try to hear the Aries Cerat Kassandra DAC...might give you some more to chew on regarding the analog/digital thing...FWIW, we did a Lampi Golden Atlantic vs. my analog rig and while the GA made a decent stab at it, the analog was still more realisitc sounding...never heard a Select II either though...
There are a lot of good DACs from the late 80s and early 90s (before the abandoning of R2Rs) that completely unlike this stereotype you have put forward...it is like a collective amnesia settled over everyone once we moved to 24/192 and now DSD that 16 bit PCM with a 18 or 20 bit DAC sounded bad. Try a STAX X1-T or Sonic Frontiers SFD-2MKII, a Mark Levinson No. 30.5 or a Theta Gen V and tell me they sound like you are describing. They don't at all sound like that.
You can hear this isn't true when you listen to a top Audio Note DAC (AD1865N), Aries Cerat DAC (AD1865N), Audio GD DAC (BB PCM1704) or even a lowly Monarchy M24 DAC (BB PCM63 or PCM1704). These all use chips from the past and don't sound at all like you describe.
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