MSB Select II arrival

[Legolas]

Agree Mike. In my limited budget sector sub 10K for a CDP I have gone beyond that now I am convinced, and it cost me half that to get there. OK lots of barmy USB fixers and convertors to get to that point, most sold off at some sort of loss.

I say hats off to Audio Note for taking a no holes barred approach to how far a CDP can go. I might be wrong, but I believe the interface between their CDT-6 and the Fifth Element has a tube high frequency circuit at each end, and this avoids the failings (maybe minor, but non e the less) in S/PDIF connection. It is a brave product, and one that may sell in very low numbers? No idea. Zanden go i2S from their CDP, as do MSB I think?

But as Mike says, it is still early day for servers and PC audio. Player software has improved a LOT (A+ and HQP for example) and we are now getting to grips with the fact servers push out a hideous amount of noise in the data lines. It isn't bits is bits. More bits with garbage bits as well IMO. I have managed (in my pathetic budgets) to get SMPS's and noisy internal power out of my chain to GREAT effect. That and loosing USB to go Ethernet to S/PDIF. It has been a remarkable journey for me, and made me realise the potential of PC audio. I am not convince myself, being a computer nerd, that you need to buy a pre-made server. I think it is entirely possible to build as good a unit for 1/4 of the price by taking care and buying the correct parts. It is also fun, and TBH I like to know I can rip out the drive and rebuild a system, change the player software, do almost anything myself, not be tied to a manufacture.

Anyway, my opinion. YMMV. But I would say go for the 3-4K max DIY route unless you can spare 15K+ on an SGM and not worry about it. No disrespect to SGM, and I haven't heard it yet, so big caviet.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Agree Mike. In my limited budget sector sub 10K for a CDP I have gone beyond that now I am convinced, and it cost me half that to get there. OK lots of barmy USB fixers and convertors to get to that point, most sold off at some sort of loss.

I say hats off to Audio Note for taking a no holes barred approach to how far a CDP can go. I might be wrong, but I believe the interface between their CDT-6 and the Fifth Element has a tube high frequency circuit at each end, and this avoids the failings (maybe minor, but non e the less) in S/PDIF connection. It is a brave product, and one that may sell in very low numbers? No idea. Zanden go i2S from their CDP, as do MSB I think?

But as Mike says, it is still early day for servers and PC audio. Player software has improved a LOT (A+ and HQP for example) and we are now getting to grips with the fact servers push out a hideous amount of noise in the data lines. It isn't bits is bits. More bits with garbage bits as well IMO. I have managed (in my pathetic budgets) to get SMPS's and noisy internal power out of my chain to GREAT effect. That and loosing USB to go Ethernet to S/PDIF. It has been a remarkable journey for me, and made me realise the potential of PC audio. I am not convince myself, being a computer nerd, that you need to buy a pre-made server. I think it is entirely possible to build as good a unit for 1/4 of the price by taking care and buying the correct parts. It is also fun, and TBH I like to know I can rip out the drive and rebuild a system, change the player software, do almost anything myself, not be tied to a manufacture.

Anyway, my opinion. YMMV. But I would say go for the 3-4K max DIY route unless you can spare 15K+ on an SGM and not worry about it. No disrespect to SGM, and I haven't heard it yet, so big caviet.

if you were to look behind the curtain at just how deep the R & D was to create the SGM you might be amazed and get your perspective re-aligned at just how poorly off the shelf approaches are for music server performance.

I'm not a computer nerd. but I can appreciate over-the-top engineering approaches from some of my other products I own, or have owned. it's too bad all this stuff matters so much. but it does matter.

and your connecting a music server's value to your viewpoint on the value of a laptop or desk top computer is the problem, you have to move on to a different viewpoint where you solve the actual performance challenges leaving behind 'good enough'.

forget what a computer cost you. not relevant when you are chasing the best transport performance.

we don't have any problem with a $20k dac, or $20k transport. neither are even considered 'uber' priced. but a $15k server; that's outrageous!

 

[asiufy]

Guys,

We just got the MSB Reference in. Unfortunately, due to the imminent arrival of the new Renderer input (with Roon), this one didn't come with one, so just USB for me. There *is* a ProI2S input, so maybe I can hook up a transport to it too...
Hooked it up quick, with a $2400 Innuos Zen doing Roon Player duties, and this thing is breathtaking.
Next: hook up the SGM


cheers,
alex

 

[microstrip]

in my mind this quandary is not a quandary at all. this is about serious file playback performance is only now 5 or 6 years old and approaching some level of maturity. every 3-6 months file performance improves. we are discovering all the little things which pollute the processing of the files. and the whole disc data delivery is fully mature 35+ years in, 3-4 billion made already, and much simpler and less influenced by these things.

observe the price of a top flight transport, and then observe the competitive server product. only one problem; there are none....yet. when someone takes a server as seriously as transports have been taken, then we will have our result.
(...)

This is exactly my point - once some one knows the why's probably servers will match and surpass transport sound quality. But not currently. The problem is that DAC interfaces are very different and maybe we can not have a single server that is the optimum for all DACs's - and probably a dedicated server will be the only optimum approach. This happened and currently happens with top transport / DACs combos - Mark Levinson, Forsell, Zandem, Metronome, DCS.

And yes, the situation is evolving - but I wanted to listen to my CD's since 15 years ago, not next year. If listening to digital files I would still be listening mainly to LP's. For me there is something fundamentally correct when I use a matched top transport that makes music more enjoyable, although my technological

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This is exactly my point - once some one knows the why's probably servers will match and surpass transport sound quality. But not currently. The problem is that DAC interfaces are very different and maybe we can not have a single server that is the optimum for all DACs's - and probably a dedicated server will be the only optimum approach. This happened and currently happens with top transport / DACs combos - Mark Levinson, Forsell, Zandem, Metronome, DCS.

And yes, the situation is evolving - but I wanted to listen to my CD's since 15 years ago, not next year. If listening to digital files I would still be listening mainly to LP's. For me there is something fundamentally correct when I use a matched top transport that makes music more enjoyable, although my technological

but Micro, why did you not also copy the rest of my comment identifying the SGM as the likely server product with the design seriousness to measure up to SOTA transports and beat them?

the rest of my post;

the SGM easily comes closest right now to this no holds bared approach on both the hardware and software side. and it's the one most competitive with transports. in my personal experience the SGM is better, but I've not heard many transports to have my experience more than a data point.

we don't have to wait to surpass the best transports. we can do it now.

 

[bonzo75]

This is exactly my point - once some one knows the why's probably servers will match and surpass transport sound quality. But not currently. The problem is that DAC interfaces are very different and maybe we can not have a single server that is the optimum for all DACs's - and probably a dedicated server will be the only optimum approach. This happened and currently happens with top transport / DACs combos - Mark Levinson, Forsell, Zandem, Metronome, DCS.

And yes, the situation is evolving - but I wanted to listen to my CD's since 15 years ago, not next year. If listening to digital files I would still be listening mainly to LP's. For me there is something fundamentally correct when I use a matched top transport that makes music more enjoyable, although my technological

Which ML model are you referring to?

We compared the Zanden to the beast+MSB diamond (Detlof had a lower model than, he has upgraded since) at Detlof's, for both of us it was slam dunk for the Beast+MSB. Musicality aside, way more body, bass, detail, dynamics, plus a whole sound. The Zanden was trying to pretty highs too much, was more rolled off, less detail and dynamics and mid body.

 

[microstrip]

but Micro, why did you not also copy the rest of my comment identifying the SGM as the likely server product with the design seriousness to measure up to SOTA transports and beat them?

the rest of my post;

I did it intentionally. I was not commenting on wishes and guesses, just on my experience. As far as I know you did not listen to MSB CD transports in your system with the MSB DAC, I have no experience with the SGM, so I wanted to exclude it from my post. My point was on general servers.

we don't have to wait to surpass the best transports. we can do it now.

How? As far as understand the SGM does not have an Ethernet output - but I can be wrong.

 

[microstrip]

Which ML model are you referring to?

We compared the Zanden to the beast+MSB diamond (Detlof had a lower model than, he has upgraded since) at Detlof's, for both of us it was slam dunk for the Beast+MSB. Musicality aside, way more body, bass, detail, dynamics, plus a whole sound. The Zanden was trying to pretty highs too much, was more rolled off, less detail and dynamics and mid body.

The ML30.5 + ML30.6 - still an excellent player by any standards in musical performance when inserted in adequate systems.

Your words just show that the beast + MSB was a much better match to Detlof system - something that I would expect considering what I have read (never listened to) Zanden products and Detlof system. You know my old point - direct A/B comparisons show mostly matching with the system, not the intrinsic quality of the equipment being compared. It is why most of the time I smile when I read the words "absolute winner" in a A/B comparison.

A goof friend had a Reymio. When inserted in system tuned to it, it had a fluidity and delicate sense of rhythm that no other digital I have listened can approach, with great subjective dynamics. However in most systems it would sound uninteresting, limited in dynamics.

This thread is on Mike's MSB, we should move to another thread to debate matching and our preferences!

 

[bonzo75]

Reimyo is superb. Their amp KAP 777 is also excellent.

A guy replaced those ML models with a normal tweaked PC and big 7 long ago, preferred the latter much more..to 31.5 and 30.6

 

[Taiko Audio]

How? As far as understand the SGM does not have an Ethernet output - but I can be wrong.

Ethernet is bidirectional, the SGM has an Ethernet interface.

A guy replaced those ML models with a normal tweaked PC and big 7 long ago, preferred the latter much more..to 31.5 and 30.6

I have 2 clients who have replaced their No.31.5 by computer transports. It's over 20 years old though, something more recent could probably be more competitive.

 

[Legolas]

if you were to look behind the curtain at just how deep the R & D was to create the SGM you might be amazed and get your perspective re-aligned at just how poorly off the shelf approaches are for music server performance.

I'm not a computer nerd. but I can appreciate over-the-top engineering approaches from some of my other products I own, or have owned. it's too bad all this stuff matters so much. but it does matter.

and your connecting a music server's value to your viewpoint on the value of a laptop or desk top computer is the problem, you have to move on to a different viewpoint where you solve the actual performance challenges leaving behind 'good enough'.

forget what a computer cost you. not relevant when you are chasing the best transport performance.

we don't have any problem with a $20k dac, or $20k transport. neither are even considered 'uber' priced. but a $15k server; that's outrageous!

I see your view Mike and agree, it needs manufacturers to keep pushing the boundaries. As I found, the CDP replacement can have a huge impact on the SQ you can achieve. My point is, and I realise this is the WBF, there are many folk who do view 10K+ boxes as beyond their reach, or comform zone. Agree the absolute best server may indeed be an SGM or similar product. BUT, for a moment, lets consider the DIY view. I don't need, want or require up sampling, external filtering or processing. I am (oddly for some) only concerned with Redbook at 44.1 resolution passed through to a DAC. I also play 96K files off Tidal as MQA unfolded. Leaving MQA aside for a moment, I am not wanting the SGM's capability to alter the file itself. I don't want DSD.

So that in my view, cuts down maybe half of the cost and build / dev in the SGM offer. I just don't want or need manipulation, only good player software, a good PS and data delivery untouched as much as possible. I also am in the Ethernet out is best camp, so not sure if the SGM is using Ethernet? Other outputs seems to send too much noise down the lines. Anyway, my views from my testing, respect to those who have a different view. BUT don't forget the bulk of audio fans don't have 10K+ budgets per box. How cool would it be if a server can be built for 4K that pretty much takes it to the max anyway, I think it can.

So, I do firmly believe, a top performing DIY server can build for about 4K. It is not PC cost v Server cost. Rather 15K SGM v 4K for a good DIY build. Maybe move this discussion the Server threads?

 

[Al M.]

Your words just show that the beast + MSB was a much better match to Detlof system - something that I would expect considering what I have read (never listened to) Zanden products and Detlof system. You know my old point - direct A/B comparisons show mostly matching with the system, not the intrinsic quality of the equipment being compared. It is why most of the time I smile when I read the words "absolute winner" in a A/B comparison.

While to some extent you have a point about system matching, your relativism seems to go too far. Think about it: why did you acquire the dCS Vivaldi stack? Because it objectively could do things that other digital rigs couldn't.

When I read "winner" in an A/B comparison, I also mostly smile, but for another reason and not in a good way. The reason being that it mostly comes down to

"better performance"
"I prefer"
"sounds better"

without giving any specifics. That is ridiculous, completely meaningless. Here's an example of how it's done right:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-comparative-listening-(rambling-amp-tedious)

 

[Emorante]

My msb reference

Guys,

We just got the MSB Reference in. Unfortunately, due to the imminent arrival of the new Renderer input (with Roon), this one didn't come with one, so just USB for me. There *is* a ProI2S input, so maybe I can hook up a transport to it too...
Hooked it up quick, with a $2400 Innuos Zen doing Roon Player duties, and this thing is breathtaking.
Next: hook up the SGM


cheers,
alex

My reference instead arrives next week, replaces in dac v diamond, Hello

 

[Mike Lavigne]

My reference instead arrives next week, replaces in dac v diamond, Hello

hello Emorante,

welcome to WBF. and congrats on the imminent arrival of your MSB Reference. I heard it at the L.A. Show and it was very fine sounding.

cheers,

Mike

 

[microstrip]

Ethernet is bidirectional, the SGM has an Ethernet interface.

Thanks. But do you consider that a shared Ethernet interface going through a router is the optimum Ethernet interface?

Do you think that USB can be intrinsically better than Ethernet?

 

[microstrip]

While to some extent you have a point about system matching, your relativism seems to go too far. Think about it: why did you acquire the dCS Vivaldi stack? Because it objectively could do things that other digital rigs couldn't.(...)

IMH experience my preference for the DCS or Metronome will depend mainly on the system I am using. If I tried the MSB I would probably say the same. It is great to know that the MSB Sellect II was a great match in Mike system and to know about its sounding qualities in a system that shows them so well. It what matters mostly in this thread.

My change was not due only to sound quality - I wanted to try a DSD / HiRez system, so I had to change something. As a consequence my WBF signature is almost empty ... My equipment choices are due to sound quality, but I also weight other factors such as built quality, availability, service, easiness of re-sale, or even an excellent occasional deal.

 

[BMCG]

I am not convince myself, being a computer nerd, that you need to buy a pre-made server. I think it is entirely possible to build as good a unit for 1/4 of the price by taking care and buying the correct parts. It is also fun, and TBH I like to know I can rip out the drive and rebuild a system, change the player software, do almost anything myself, not be tied to a manufacture.

+1 ....the DIY route....affords a means to explore/adapt/evolve ....astutely.....

appreciate a significant segment of our "distraction" has no interest in such fettling...to them them the SGM/Aurender/Wadax.....

 

[Emorante]

Ethernet

hello Emorante,

welcome to WBF. and congrats on the imminent arrival of your MSB Reference. I heard it at the L.A. Show and it was very fine sounding.

cheers,

Mike

Thanks for the good. We come to the ethernet issue but before we step back, I think common to many of us. I started the liquid music, so called in Italy, about 20 years ago. With windows xp and winamp, to find out slowly, which also players play different. I started accumulating music in my hd and today or about 12,000 albums that I could not hold in my home furniture. So in addition to looking for a good player, I've been using a good catalog and a good search engine, from foobar, audirvana, roon with hq player, with a mac mini, before and then with bootcamp to install Windows server with AO, fidelizer And lasso process and so on. I tried various USB cables, like you, linear power supplies in each port, then regen, then microrendu, but you do not get the sound of a good mechanic, you're approaching. I recently sold my umt plus IV. because? But because I do not want to get up and change cd, or lp if I'm not particularly in the mood. Then Tidal arrived. So be good ethernet if it can still get closer to the best sound, but do not go back to the cd. So much to hear the good turntable. To conclude today, for me, the best configuration is roon rock on nuc i5 with lps and microrendu, it sounds better than Windows Server 2016 core with AO, the sound is fuller and linear, with bass and average I did not have with macmini Which sound is moved forward. Unfortunately the soon-to-be-available renderer module can not be connected directly to the dac but must pass through a dhcp server. So part of the ethernet advantage might be lost, I know because in bridge mode the sound is better than going through the router. Rock does not allow bridge mode, I hope aqvox switch can help. But we will still stay with lps in the router. So we are not at the final point yet. For completeness my main components are burmester 911 and 808 and acapella hight violon. Excuse my english translated with google. Toni

 

[Taiko Audio]

So, I do firmly believe, a top performing DIY server can build for about 4K. It is not PC cost v Server cost. Rather 15K SGM v 4K for a good DIY build. Maybe move this discussion the Server threads?

Sure, you can DIY build a DAC too, it may not be entirely up to the level of the MSB S2 but it will probably be cheaper. DIY can be very rewarding though typically time consuming. I suspect most audiophiles take on some form of DIY project in their audiophile "career". Threadstarter Mike Lavigne took on a really big one in building a dedicated listening room. Cheaper then having had it fully built from start to finish by a specialized company? Probably, if you'd have to put a value on your own time put in, probably not. Pride of ownership though.. Enjoying the ride.. Knowledge gained.. I'd argue the DIY part of the system has a much longer life expectancy then any component ready bought.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thanks for the good. We come to the ethernet issue but before we step back, I think common to many of us. I started the liquid music, so called in Italy, about 20 years ago. With windows xp and winamp, to find out slowly, which also players play different. I started accumulating music in my hd and today or about 12,000 albums that I could not hold in my home furniture. So in addition to looking for a good player, I've been using a good catalog and a good search engine, from foobar, audirvana, roon with hq player, with a mac mini, before and then with bootcamp to install Windows server with AO, fidelizer And lasso process and so on. I tried various USB cables, like you, linear power supplies in each port, then regen, then microrendu, but you do not get the sound of a good mechanic, you're approaching. I recently sold my umt plus IV. because? But because I do not want to get up and change cd, or lp if I'm not particularly in the mood. Then Tidal arrived. So be good ethernet if it can still get closer to the best sound, but do not go back to the cd. So much to hear the good turntable. To conclude today, for me, the best configuration is roon rock on nuc i5 with lps and microrendu, it sounds better than Windows Server 2016 core with AO, the sound is fuller and linear, with bass and average I did not have with macmini Which sound is moved forward. Unfortunately the soon-to-be-available renderer module can not be connected directly to the dac but must pass through a dhcp server. So part of the ethernet advantage might be lost, I know because in bridge mode the sound is better than going through the router. Rock does not allow bridge mode, I hope aqvox switch can help. But we will still stay with lps in the router. So we are not at the final point yet. For completeness my main components are burmester 911 and 808 and acapella hight violon. Excuse my english translated with google. Toni

hello Toni,

thank for your efforts to share your journey with us. I think we get your meanings.

nice system you have there, and I'm expecting that the MSB Reference dac will be a wonderful addition to it. when you get the time, maybe open a new thread and post some pictures of your system so we can see it.

I agree that having the music on the hard drive has advantages in ease of use. personally I have 15 terabytes on a NAS that allows me to easily access it (through the SGM server) when I'm in that mood.

so we are all left to figure out the best way to access that music, and it sounds like you have done much work on that. I'm not very knowledgeable about computers myself, so the SGM server and their support helps me, as well as my son a network engineer. and we are all waiting for this new renderer to arrive and see where that takes us.