It seems to me "tube digital2 is just a solid state system with a tube buffer that adds some specific sound signature we prefer. I owned for years and enjoyed a lot both Audio Research CD players - CD7 and CD8 and the Metronome C2A. When using the Vivaldi I currently prefer it going through a tube preamplifier, although the more realistic demo I listened of it was using the top Constellation Audio, that are a world apart of their entrance electronics.
MSB Select II arrival
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
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It seems to me "tube digital2 is just a solid state system with a tube buffer that adds some specific sound signature we prefer. I owned for years and enjoyed a lot both Audio Research CD players - CD7 and CD8 and the Metronome C2A. When using the Vivaldi I currently prefer it going through a tube preamplifier, although the more realistic demo I listened of it was using the top Constellation Audio, that are a world apart of their entrance electronics.
Hi JP
Yes, the msb transport is based on oppo. It is not esoteric vrds but from my own experience it is more reliable than eso. I used to own an eso k1, very nice, but sometimes it had mistracking problems, mostly (ironically) on sacd produced by esoteric japan!
The oppo mechanism can play 24/196 on blurays and dvds. The msb transport has one more notable feature - it can output unencrypted dsd signals.
Cheers
Yes, the msb transport is based on oppo. It is not esoteric vrds but from my own experience it is more reliable than eso. I used to own an eso k1, very nice, but sometimes it had mistracking problems, mostly (ironically) on sacd produced by esoteric japan!
The oppo mechanism can play 24/196 on blurays and dvds. The msb transport has one more notable feature - it can output unencrypted dsd signals.
Cheers
I see, thanks. It was just a question and I have no experience with Oppo. If MSB is using it I guess it is "good enough"
.JP
Care to elaborate on the last statement "I don't like tube dacs,..." ? Seems like a very bold and broad brushed statement. I in general don't like SS dacs, which in my experience don't sound as natural, but I have heard exceptions I could live with.
I envy your exposure to this level of live sound, morricab. I do understand what you and Ked are describing, and I tend to agree: this is how I experience live sound and good reproduction, more so with analog than with most of the digital I have heard. I often focus on the "completeness" of a note: attack, sustain, decay. When a cartridge/arm is properly set up, the note is more complete. In a recent direct comparison between a Berkeley Ref DAC and the dCS Rossini that I auditioned with Al M., the sense of flow, continuousness, seamlessness and completeness were precisely the differences I heard between the two DACs. And, like live music, the preferred DAC helped me to feel more relaxed. It sounded more right to me, more like live music. When the sound is not natural, something is amiss and that causes tension and stress. My mind and body can not succumb to the music around me. In that sense, I refer to even the most exuberant brass or string section or solos as "relaxed" with flow, continuousness, and seamlessness.
I wonder if the disagreement is between whether the music or the listener is "relaxed". I tend to describe the listening experience as "relaxed", that is the listener is relaxed because his mind/body is not struggling with artifacts that sound unnatural. He is able to let go and loose himself to the music. Perhaps some describe music or the sound of a system as "relaxed" if it is slow, soft, or lacks energy. So much of audio discussion seems to depend on semantics.
I have often had a hand on my shoulder from behind in the audience asking me to stay still, because my violent air conducting was disturbing them. I don’t like Albert Hall acoustics for classical but the main benefit of the proms is you can stand in the Arena, and treat a classical concert like a rock show. Al is fixated on his relaxed vs some instruments like brass have to sound hard as if no one else gets that, and that all the tube listeners are listening for a rolled off soft sound to give flow. If he does not get the semantics, he should move on.
the best continuousness and flow I've heard with digital is the MSB Select II at show demos with the 2 power supplies and the 33 Femto clock. these attributes are not everything, but they are what brought me back multiple times and caused me to choose it. and in that sense it's in analog territory, maybe not quite at the highest analog level. I hear it in other digital too, just not to that degree. in the GG I heard it, but likely the Nagra HD (through XLR and with added output transformers and the best SGM HQP settings) at it's best was a little bit better at that......that was what I heard in my room.
tubes, more tubes, DHT tubes, etc. etc. do not in themselves produce this attribute. it's in the data and how it's presented. just my view of how things seem to work. the stylus tells us something and the rest of the vinyl playback links do other things, but the limitation is the data.
It depends on what you mean by a buffer. If you mean stick on a cathode follower onto the end of a chain that has several opamps or discrete transistor elements coming before, then I am also not a fan. This is not the case for top tube DACs where the tube is connected to the output of the DAC itself after some form of passive I/V conversion (resistor or transformer). Then the tube IS the analog amplification and not just a "buffer". For SS it is no different. You have either an opamp on the end or discrete transistors. It will be invariably more complicated than a single tube output stage like is found in the Lampizator, Aries Cerat, Monarchy M24 or Audio Note UK designs.
If Audio research slaps a tube buffer after their opamp based analog filter then you are right to turn your nose up at this but for serious gear where the tube is integral to the analog output stage I don't agree with you that it is about "flavoring" the output any more than using a really good preamp is flavoring a system.
Sure- this demo unit had the Femto 77 clock and the upgraded constant impedance attenuator.
Yes, I would agree that this feeling of unease is a good subconscious indicator that something is not right. I do sometimes feel this live as well but it is invariably a live AMPLIFIED concert where some kind of electronic artifacts are coming through. I think relaxed has potentially negative connotations but sense or ease or unease might work better. I generally experience a "brightness" with a lot of SS digital gear that I perceive as a synthesized and exaggerated kind of artifact that some perceive as "detail". When that artifact is missing the first impression might well be that the device has lower resolution...except on extended listening it does not have less but delivers it in a way that is frankly with less distortion that is detrimental to natural perception.
Any single tube output will contain relatively high levels of distortion. Imo, a single triode with no feedback acting as a voltage gain is pushing it to be considered high fidelity. For power output it works better, for a preamp or source it's too colored.
Not sure I follow you on the last sentence there. What is being used as amplification devices after the DAC chips DOES matter for flow and continuousness...it matters a lot. In fact you can take two completely identical digital sections right to the output of the DAC chips (or discrete register for a discrete design) and change the I/V conversion (we are already analog here) and change the output stage and TOTALLY change the sound so that one will give very good flow and continuousness and the other could frankly sound like crap. This was the whole message of Lampizator before he went commercial and I have seen this be right too many times to doubt it. So, I don't really know what you mean by how the data is presented? You mean from the digital server? Of course, manipulating the digits with complex algorithms seems to result different sounds...jitter? Changing the digits (oversampling and upsampling obviously "create" more digits as would other kinds of digital filters)? What else is HQplayer and the like doing?? For a 16/44 silver disk source, Jitter from both signal and power are the main factors affecting what gets decoded. Analog is limited by retrieval but so is digital or there would not be any discussions or markets for superservers. However, the best retrieval in the world will not save you from a poor analog output stage on your converter. In the MSB case I think it has no output stage, right? Just sufficient drive from the DAC itself (so basically just pure modulations of what is hopefully a very very very clean power supply). In effect it is neither solidstate nor tube from a conventional amplification perspective.
I have found that single ended tube amplifiers, either DHT or IDHT, are more likely to have flow and continuousness than either PP tube or SS (including single ended ones) amps. I know you disagree and think the darTZeels have it...I have not heard a system with their amps in it where I could say that I agree. So, if one values this attribute higher than most, they often end up SET lovers.
Brad, my system is built in a different fashion and I have a number of reasons I don't prefer tube dacs. However, this thread is really about the MSB Select (and to a lesser extent, the Reference) which Mike and I believe puts digital into new, unfamiliar ground. If you would like to start a different thread, I'd be happy to comment further but I don't feel this is the appropriate place. I would encourage you to hear a Reference or Select dac in a familiar system and that was the point of my post. I agree with you that digital in general has been incremental gains for years and not terribly exciting - the MSB Select/Ref have changed this dynamic.
I disagree, especially if it is transformer coupled and care has been taken to have a very stable power. Also, the SRPP circuit, which works with two triodes (or a single double triode tube) will give low impedance, gain and low distortion. It is possible to generate several volts of output with < 0.1% distortion this way (especially transformer coupled) and that will be primarily inaudible (at that level) 2nd harmonic.
I could not have said it better myself.
the MSB Select II......has.....nothing.....after the dac chip. that's not the whole story. but like you say.....it matters a lot. there is no analog output/gain stage of any kind. the dacs themselves have enough gain to not only be line level but to drive headphones or amplifiers directly.
is 'nothing' better than lots of something?
to my ears of what I've heard, yes.
Fair enough. I will try to hear the Select DAC sometime soon and give my feedback. I have heard a game changer recently but it was not the Lampi...nor the Select (but as i said...haven't heard it).
Well, it could be questioned that without active device there will be lack of oomph and thinness ...kind of like the common criticism leveled at resistor based passive "preamp"...afterall the dac is nothing more or less than a very precise resistor ladder. It is often the reason that people put up with "colored" active preamps because going straight from the DAC through a passive volume control loses something. Not saying this is the case but i could see how that might be argued.
Yes, you beat me to it. I believe this could be the magic - the reason I say that is after a session with my Analog Dac last night which doesn't use the new Hybrid Dacs, I have stronger thoughts on the matter.
Brad, obviously we experience things very differently.
That's o.k., diversity is the spice of human existence.
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