MSB Select II arrival

[asiufy]

Did you try introducing a CH or Dag line preamplfier in the system with their own amplfiers? My experience with REF40 in ARC amplfiiers was inconclusive - sometimes I preferred direct, others with the REF40. And I dislike ARC preamplifiers with D'Agostino - they need their own preamplifier. But is is just me!

I'm glad you understand it's just you, as that combination is quite special We've even used it at last year's LA show... Listening to it right now, and it's amazing.

Oh, and I remember we've compared the SELECT II (purely as a preamp, using another DAC connected to its analog inputs) against an Eistein preamp loaded with NOS tubes, driving D'Agostino and later EMM Labs monoblocks. SELECT II was better, even the Eistein owner admitted it...



cheers,
Alex

 

[QuadDiffuser]

Thank you for some clarification. I believe you are trying to judge the MSB when you are not using it as it is intended. A preamp is probably required in your case to drive the equalization device, all the cables and different amplifiers.
I feel that this is the issue not the preamp stage of the MSB.

Hi Elliot,

Kindly elaborate on why you believe I'm "not using it as it is intended"?

The URL link which explains in detail the amplifier implementation in my loudspeakers, and none of my components (a list of which you've seen through my WBF profile) are unorthodox in their design or implementation. They are not technically beyond what an experienced audiophile would be able to decipher. Hint: my DAC's XLR balanced analog outputs are connected directly (and only) to the XLR balanced input of my amps.

 

[microstrip]

Sure, ARC REF 10, D'Agostino Momentum Preamp. Both times, with MSB SELECT II and MSB Reference, everybody preferred going direct, both with D'Agostino monos as well as MSB's own 204 monos.

I did this exact test just this morning. Adding the preamp (REF10) decreased impact and energy levels considerably. The preamp added headroom, because of its overall gain being far greater, so we didn't have to run close to the maximum volume, like we usually have to with the MSB going direct. Again, if the overall gain structure of your system is already on the low side (with inefficient speakers, low gain amps, etc.), the MSB might need the help of an external preamp. That I could see happening, but you'd be trading transparency and resolution for that little extra headroom for sure.

I've had dCS before, and I would go direct from time to time, just get that "rush", the immediacy. But I'd switch the preamp (darTZeel NHB-18NS) back in within the hour, since the harshness became unbearable.

And frankly, in previous MSB generations, it was sort of like the dCS experience, when going direct too.

I'll have to agree that, in general, a preamp is preferrable. But that just proves that this new generation of MSB products is far beyond everything else out there, even their previous DACs.


cheers,
alex

Thanks - a very limited number of cases and the same equipment it was referred in another post - it seems the high end is dominated by the shadow of ARC and D'Agostino!

IMHO there is a lot more in matching a system than just gain structure - although we much watch it. Sorry to know your experiences with dCS direct were spoiled by "unbearable harshness" - IMHO an indication of a poor match. Many dCS users use it this way with success, and in my experiences harshness was never a problem of the dCS Vivaldi direct, unless I used it improperly. BTW, I only have direct experience with it for the last couple of years (version 2.0).

 

[microstrip]

Did you try introducing a CH or Dag line preamplfier in the system with their own amplfiers? My experience with REF40 in ARC amplfiiers was inconclusive - sometimes I preferred direct, others with the REF40. And I dislike ARC preamplifiers with D'Agostino - they need their own preamplifier. But is is just me!

I'm glad you understand it's just you, as that combination is quite special We've even used it at last year's LA show... Listening to it right now, and it's amazing. (...)

Perhaps I should write it more clearly - there is a blend of seamless, delicacy, coherency and robustness, a lacking of electronics, when you pair the two D'Agostino's that IMHO was partially lost when the REF10 was put in place. The sound quality is still very good, but once you experience the matched pair in optimum conditions it is hard to forget it. Probably findings in other systems would be different, but we create our opinions on what we experienced. BTW, I felt the same about the Constellation Audio's - they should be paired. And yes, I feel I need a Lamm preamplifier to make justice to the M1.2 that is playing in my system.

 

[asiufy]

Perhaps I should write it more clearly - there is a blend of seamless, delicacy, coherency and robustness, a lacking of electronics, when you pair the two D'Agostino's that IMHO was partially lost when the REF10 was put in place. The sound quality is still very good, but once you experience the matched pair in optimum conditions it is hard to forget it. Probably findings in other systems would be different, but we create our opinions on what we experienced. BTW, I felt the same about the Constellation Audio's - they should be paired. And yes, I feel I need a Lamm preamplifier to make justice to the M1.2 that is playing in my system.

Ah, I see your point now... Yes, the D'Agostino Pre + the monos is indeed a good match, and we've heard it many times, only bested by the SELECT's preamp. Our preference for the ARC was, basically, to go for a different presentation, with a wider, deeper soundstage, more palpable/holographic perhaps.

 

[LL21]

Perhaps I should write it more clearly - there is a blend of seamless, delicacy, coherency and robustness, a lacking of electronics, when you pair the two D'Agostino's that IMHO was partially lost when the REF10 was put in place. The sound quality is still very good, but once you experience the matched pair in optimum conditions it is hard to forget it. Probably findings in other systems would be different, but we create our opinions on what we experienced. BTW, I felt the same about the Constellation Audio's - they should be paired. And yes, I feel I need a Lamm preamplifier to make justice to the M1.2 that is playing in my system.

...or get the CJ Ref Monos!

 

[microstrip]

...or get the CJ Ref Monos!

I already have the cj LP275m's in the room - very similar to the old ART's, but quite different from the new ART300's with the KT150.

 

[QuadDiffuser]

Please allow me to diverge a bit; this article may help de-mystify objective measurements vs subjective outcome, ie. the sonic contribution / subtraction of external preamplifiers with respect to whether or not to run the Select II DAC *straight into the amplifier.

"A central mystery of high-end audio amplifier design is the poor correlation between subjective sound quality and conventional measurements (frequency response, harmonic distortion, etc.). For this reason, many of the choices involved in amplifier design-- the selection of the overall circuit topology, the use of negative feedback (NFB) and the often-overlooked tradeoff between frequency response extension and radio frequency (RF) interference-- have remained an art."

http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/Spice_preamp.html

 

[QuadDiffuser]

An excellent video by Paul McGowan explaining the principles of input and output impedance, component-to-component interface, etc. More food for thought on the merits / de-merits of inserting (or not inserting) a preamp between the Select II DAC and the amplifier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HGS6W7ZiGY

 

[QuadDiffuser]

While that is very true with the PS Audio DAC (it doesn't sound nearly as good as when used with a proper preamp), it is not universal truth, as Howie eloquently put it.

With the SELECT II, it is absolutely not necessary to have a preamp, and in most cases, it'll actually be detrimental.

QuadDiffusor, if you still can, cancel/return the Ayre, you're not going to need it


cheers,
alex

Dear Alex,

Thank you for your suggestion!
I have successfully cancelled my order for the Ayre KX-R Twenty preamplifier a few weeks ago, as I have absolute confidence that the MSB Select II's preamplifier output module alone is optimal for delivering the analog output signal directly (and unadultered in any way) into the amplifier. Looking forward to gradually replacing (and breaking in) the AC power cables in my system during the next couple of months to savor the results.

 

[asiufy]

Dear Alex,

Thank you for your suggestion!
I have successfully cancelled my order for the Ayre KX-R Twenty preamplifier a few weeks ago, as I have absolute confidence that the MSB Select II's preamplifier output module alone is optimal for delivering the analog output signal directly (and unadultered in any way) into the amplifier. Looking forward to gradually replacing (and breaking in) the AC power cables in my system during the next couple of months to savor the results.

Awesome!
Enjoy the SELECT in all its glory


cheers,
alex

 

[Priaptor]

I just read Valin’s review of the Magico M3. No surprise that he found these “new” Magicos the newest bestest all time incredible and remarkable speaker even better than the last Magicos he said the same about.

HOWEVER the big surprise in the article was not his praise of the M3 but the fact that “JV is now listening to digital” claiming accolades for the same using the MSB Select (in the article) although he lists the MSB Reference in his list of equipment.

Interesting turn for an “analog only” person.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Valin? Pass.

 

[Folsom]

I just read Valin’s review of the Magico M3. No surprise that he found these “new” Magicos the newest bestest all time incredible and remarkable speaker even better than the last Magicos he said the same about.

HOWEVER the big surprise in the article was not his praise of the M3 but the fact that “JV is now listening to digital” claiming accolades for the same using the MSB Select (in the article) although he lists the MSB Reference in his list of equipment.

Interesting turn for an “analog only” person.

They are very good speakers but need the right amplifier for bass.

 

[KeithR]

Valin? Pass.

I despise JV, but he's right on this one.

every tube and vinyl guy I know has agreed.

 

[Folsom]

I just read Valin’s review of the Magico M3. No surprise that he found these “new” Magicos the newest bestest all time incredible and remarkable speaker even better than the last Magicos he said the same about.

HOWEVER the big surprise in the article was not his praise of the M3 but the fact that “JV is now listening to digital” claiming accolades for the same using the MSB Select (in the article) although he lists the MSB Reference in his list of equipment.

Interesting turn for an “analog only” person.

They are very good speakers but need the right amplifier for bass.

 

[Legolas]

They are very good speakers but need the right amplifier for bass.

Most if not all the Magico's are low efficiency, so that limits the amp choices IMO.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hello fellow WBF members. I decided to subscribe to this thread — the first digital thread to which I have ever subscribed!

 

[LL21]

Hello fellow WBF members. I decided to subscribe to this thread — the first digital thread to which I have ever subscribed!

Thus the page turns in the chapters of audio history...

 

[PeterA]

Thus the page turns in the chapters of audio history...

Funny. I made note of the day in history that Ron heard the SS Dartzeel amps and liked them. That, too was a special day. I don't know if he had subscribed to SS electronic threads before then.